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Sean Connery has died

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Re: Sean Connery has died

#101
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget he was also an unapologetic advocate of spousal abuse, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mzXkbJwrN38

Any living person can hold a reprehensible point of view, and as much as I may disagree with it, I really can't stand this attitude of writing people off because of a flawed perspective. That doesn't mean I support spousal abuse by association, it means I recognise he has a shitty point of view amongst all of his other flaws, as well as his qualities. There isn't a single person in history that can meet this standard…

I don't think anyone here was saying that we should reduce people to a two-dimensional caricature of themselves.

I think the point that was trying to be made was that, this is something people should know about before they decided to unreservedly push this man as a saviour or as a hero, and that giving this knowledge to people allows them to decide how they feel about it, whether they are comfortable with it, and ultimately, be aware of it.

'Cancelling' public artists and figures is always about three things:

1) Reducing the effect, or putting into context, their platform. In other words: allowing people to be aware about the ideas creators hold -- there's almost always some kind of bleed-over -- and if that person tends to go on a soapbox, allowing people to be able to discern whether they want to listen based on this new fact that could be extremely relevant. For example, it would change your mind whether someone was talking about the nature of consent, based on whether they were known for being abusive and acting non-consensually with other people, no? That seems like a hugely important fact to know.

2) Allowing us to be aware and put into context the people that we, as a society, hold up -- people who for all intents and purposes can 'do no wrong'. And deciding whether or not we still want to consume those works, and hold them up on that pedestal, with that information.

3) If they are still alive, ensuring that they remain accountable for actions or beliefs that have harmed or will harm people. Ensuring people who are vulnerable and likely to interact with them, can be aware and avoid being harmed. This gives the public figure a choice: They can either push back against it and dig their heels in deeper, or they can take responsibility, grow as a person, and maybe even cast off or recant whatever made them act in such a way or believe such things. It allows them to introspect into what they've done, and gives them the opportunity to decide to become a better person. A wonderful example of this is Dan Harmon, who acted inappropriately towards staff under him, and did not realise it at the time because of his emotional state. He introspected to figure out why that happened, apologised in full, and has presumably taken steps and made himself more aware so he will not repeat those actions. In addition, staff around him can be more aware, and can more openly and safely broach the issue with him now if he does relapse, because of how he responded. What better can we ask for?!

It's not about destroying people, or encouraging people to see them as some monster, it's fundamentally about allowing people to choose how they want to interact with that person -- even in a parasocial way. It's about allowing choice, and allowing people to act with discretion, more than anything else.

Arguably, this encourages people to see them less as a two dimensional caricature. My reaction to this information was that this person was obviously very complex, and had both good ideas and bad ideas.

Interestingly enough, I always percieve people (like you) who so vehemently argue against spreading information like this, and allowing people to choose how they view public figures and interact with content that they have produced, as arguing this from fear. From the fear that acts that you have done will catch up with you. This might not be true, but it does make me wonder.

Re: Sean Connery has died

#102
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget he was also an unapologetic advocate of spousal abuse, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mzXkbJwrN38

Any living person can hold a reprehensible point of view, and as much as I may disagree with it, I really can't stand this attitude of writing people off because of a flawed perspective. That doesn't mean I support spousal abuse by association, it means I recognise he has a shitty point of view amongst all of his other flaws, as well as his qualities. There isn't a single person in history that can meet this standard…

Indeed, I think it's a terrible mistake to hold historical figures to modern standards and morals. I'm sure there are things even the best among us do today that could be harshly judged in the future.

"Of this I am quite sure, that if we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost the future" -- Winston Churchill

Re: Sean Connery has died

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His top 5 performances in my mind * The Man Who Would Be King * The Offense * Last Crusade * The Untouchables * The Wind and the Lion He wasn't as bad of an actor as people say (compared to the greats), but he didn't take a lot of challenging roles. I wish he'd played more villains/anti heroes.

In my mind, I was listing the Connery movies that I liked and I completely forgot The Man Who Would Be King. I love that movie! Along with Michael Caine and Saeed Jaffrey as Billy Fish, it really shows a fun side to him.

That seems to be curiously common with that film - people seem to: 1) think it's awesome 2) but somehow forget that they think that until they're reminded of it!

Re: Sean Connery has died

#105
post #101
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any living person can hold a reprehensible point of view, and as much as I may disagree with it, I really can't stand this attitude of writing people off because of a flawed perspective. That doesn't mean I support spousal abuse by association, it means I recognise he has a shitty point of view amongst all of his other flaws, as well as his qualities. There isn't a single person in history that can meet this standard…

I don't think anyone here was saying that we should reduce people to a two-dimensional caricature of themselves. I think the point that was trying to be made was that, this is something people should know about before they decided to unreservedly push this man as a saviour or as a hero, and that giving this knowledge to people allows them to decide how they feel about it, whether they are comfortable with it, and ult…

I appreciate the nuanced response and I also believe you're also coming from a place of compassion here too.

I agree to an extent, but I think it is too easy to take a nasty turn in this age of information overload. It's very easy to cherry pick salacious details and run with them, knowing that people will take it at face value.

I'm absolutely not accusing anyone here of doing that, and in part I'm not responding to the parent in as much as I'm also venting my exasperation about how we talk about people on the internet these days.

Even if Connery did publicly retract or apologise, for example, how many people would try to seek that out if all they saw was the original video in isolation? Once a criminal, always a criminal? Or can we imagine that people may change even without making a public song and dance about it?

These are the questions I ask myself.

Re: Sean Connery has died

#106

Whenever someone of this stature goes, I tend to gather together their films, what I have of them, and work through them. So here I am looking at Outland (which isn't as terrible as Harlan Ellison said but goodness it isn't great), Zardoz , In the Name of the Rose , The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (it's fun, I will grant it that), Time Bandits and was left wondering: what films had his iconic performances? What…

Alfred Hitchcock's Marnie (1964) where he appeared against Tippi Hedren. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058329/

Re: Sean Connery has died

#107

I once helped Mr. Connery print something. I was staying at the Beverly Hills Hilton in 2004 during Oscars week. I was in the business center on the Internet (this was the dark ages before ubiquitous hotel WiFi and personal devices.) Someone comes in, and then a few minutes later says in a completely unmistakable voice “Excuse me, do you know how to print this?” I immediately jumped into parental IT support mode, it…

[deleted]

Re: Sean Connery has died

#108
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it more perplexing that we pre-occupy ourselves with splitting the people of the world into those who are good and those who are bad. And then making sure the bad group can't ever make its way back into the good one. Rarely, if ever, is it so clear cut. And if anything, it's quite a juvenile (and pervasively Western) value system. I find it particularly exhausting and the world is as it is because there isn't…

What a very weird take on my comments. We didn’t make Sean Connery identify as “bad” - he did that, and did so unremorsefully and unapologetically. He didn’t want to come back to the “good” side. I find it most perplexing of all that you would want to do mental gymnastics to defend someone like that or minimize the highlighting of genuine harm that person did by trying to disingenuously act like it’s more nuanced tha…

> he did that

So it's because of him you have to bad mouth him. It must be hard.

Sean denounced domestic abuse afterwards. Does he get points for that?

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12430892.i-dont-believe-...

Re: Sean Connery has died

#109

Merchant Navy, milkman, nude model, lifeguard, truck driver, bricklayer, boxer, bodybuilder, street brawler (he once beat a gang of four while hanging out with Michael Caine, and another time, he defeated six people in a street fight.) ... ... and, finally, backstage maintenance worker at the King’s Theatre in Edinburgh. The rest is history.- A 20th century icon.- RIP.-

He also recorded lovely narrations for Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG4wWO5HV3c&list=PLVJ2vTa3CV... and Britten's Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKjQlF-2WiA&list=PLVJ2vTa3CV... , apparently for charity in a spare evening between Bond shoots.

Re: Sean Connery has died

#110
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget he was also an unapologetic advocate of spousal abuse, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mzXkbJwrN38

Thats not at all what he says in this video. He says slapping a woman is fine if she is already abusing you. I'd rather walk away than slap personally, because girls like he describe are just a waste of time from experience (even though they usually think it makes them cool lol), but he is NOT advocating abusing at all. He is advocating "slapping" (and making it clear to not punch) to END abuse.

I watched because I was curious after your comment, but he doesn't seem to say anything about her being abusive, just not taking your (his/the man's) 'final word'?

I was curious because arguably behaving differently according to their gender (i.e. not hitting a woman back) is what would be sexist, (albeit a widely accepted form) but as it is it ('my word is final or I hit you'?) just seems bad regardless of whether the other person's a man or a woman...

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