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New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

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Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#141
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables are already widely deployed and payed for. It is nuts to build nuclear to replace fully functional wind turbines and solar cells. Nuclear fans just have no economic sense. It is all about nuclear no matter the cost.

>...It is all about nuclear no matter the cost. Oddly, this is the exact sort of behavior I sometimes see with the advocates for renewables. Cost should always be a consideration, but when people conveniently ignore some costs and focus on others, it does a disservice to the goal of decarbonizing the grid. The levelized cost for residential rooftop solar is at least as high as nuclear, but that cost doesn't seem to m…

I’m an advocate for taxing carbon and letting the utility companies figure out what is really cheaper. They have the expertise and the incentive.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#142
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Renewables are already widely deployed and payed for. It is nuts to build nuclear to replace fully functional wind turbines and solar cells. Nuclear fans just have no economic sense. It is all about nuclear no matter the cost.

>...It is all about nuclear no matter the cost. Oddly, this is the exact sort of behavior I sometimes see with the advocates for renewables. Cost should always be a consideration, but when people conveniently ignore some costs and focus on others, it does a disservice to the goal of decarbonizing the grid. The levelized cost for residential rooftop solar is at least as high as nuclear, but that cost doesn't seem to m…

Ok, tell me how do you plan on restoring the dying nuclear industry? It's still dying to this very day and it's not because there is a lack of trying or too much regulation. It's because of the inherent complexity of a monolithic power plant. They are so complicated that no single party except the government can take full responsibility for them. Meanwhile no other industry has this problem.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#143
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless how expensive it get, it won't burn tons of fossil fuels. Government should just set the conditions for new power and heating infrastructure. No fossil fuels. Zero carbon. A minimum and peak capacity based on current and projected demands. Private companies can bid, but they can't change the conditions. If a private company can more cheaply and faster build massive amount of battery and use exclusively win…

If its like the other projects, it may never generate a single kWh when it gets cancelled. Also, it will be much too late to avoid massive climate change so its a bit mute. And that's assuming we also cut all our other emissions and every other country on earth cuts theirs... Plus "no matter what the cost" is a pretty weird attitude if you don't mind me saying. If we can save more carbon by spending the same money el…

s/mute/moot/

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SMR is interesting and have advantages... but it is not ready yet, and there are uncertainty about the cost. Wind and solar are getting so cheap that I have doubt SMR can compete on price... Possibly it could compete at the margin when the cost of storage (electrical and thermal) and demand-response are too expensive. About the current cost of the different type of energy: https://www.lazard.com/media/451086/lazards-…

Economies of scale. Most of the cost for a traditional nuclear plant is regulatory&decomissioning. If new nuclear can get over that, and it's allowed to go through a couple of iterations (which happens much faster nowadays), there is really no way to estimate how low the price can go. A 10x reduction is not out of question, if you look at SpaceX for example, another industry where innovation has been frozen for decad…

But the fact is we have now cheap existing clean technologies, with a fast decreasing cost (decreasing cost of energy, and decreasing cost of managing intermittence)...

It does not seems wise to bet that SMR will be cheaper than renewable in 10 to 20 years and wait and pray...

SMR is not a viable option right now. That is an interesting possibility we should study and work on, that could be a good surprise later on, but right now 1) it is not ready 2) we don't know if it will be cost competitive... Putting aside nuclear risks and radioactive waste problem (that are minimized by SMR)

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the Europe Union really wants a trade war with the US. Basically, Germany is the weak spot in this. They are an export driven economy and a US embargo on Germany would be devastating.

The US isn't the largest CO2 emitter, though it used to be. China's emissions are approximately double the US's and growing.

Are you seriously proposing that CO2 be capped per country, as opposed to per capita?

That's a fascinating proposal.

I don't think that will be particularly favorable to the US, though. There are 195 countries in the world, yet the US accounts for 14% of all of the world's emissions.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, have you replied to the wrong comment? Besides, very soon all new construction in the UK will be required to be heated exclusively by electricity, so for new housing heating costs will be absolutely huge compared to gas.

My rough calculations me that switching my 1970s UK detached home from gas to electric for hot water and central heating would triple my usage costs (and that doesn't include the cost of switching in the first place). I'm still interested in doing it though because it would massively simplify the heating system. Removing gas from the system would mean I could do all the regular maintenance by myself whereas at presen…

It's an interesting point. The law actually allows a competent person to work on their own gas systems themselves but doesn't define exactly what that means. I've seen people claim that it only narrowly applies to previously qualified Gas Safe engineers who have allowed their registration to lapse but I think that is a stretch.

Also, I think the idea would be to install an air source heat pump rather than resistive electrical heating.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#147
So a few notes on this in no particular order:

1) LCOE notwithstanding is new nuclear good value / likely to be a low regrets investment?

2) Why have previous EPRs been delayed and over budget?

3) Why is HPC so expensive?

4) Is there evidence that HPC, the predecessor is likely to be on-time / on-budget?

5) Therefore is this likely to be a good decision?

The first one depends on whole-system modelling of energy systems cost. LCOE is fine for understanding the cost of a single point asset or of a low penetration technology, it doesn't incorporate balancing costs. The way you model this is you build a model that:

-Includes heat as well since the electrification of heat adds a substantial load of non temporally diversified, difficult to defer load. Basically when its cold, everyone wants to run their heat pumps and they will run them for weeks at a time)

-Includes transport (including V2G)

-Includes demand side response

-Includes storage (not including storage and DSR is not realistic and substantially escalates system costs)

-Operates at the long time resolution where investment decisions are made and at the short time resolution (stochastic unit commitment to dispatch available resources in an optimal way)

-Includes system stability constraints

-Includes transmission and distribution costs

-Generates physically plausible load/generation combinations, in other words if you're in Los Angeles you don't need to simulate what happens if it's blazingly hot on a February evening after a day where the sun hasn't shone because that doesn't happen.

You then impose a carbon constraint on your model and let it come up with an optimum generation mix and associated system cost for that constraint. If you want to know the system value of a particular technology, you manually increase or decrease it from the optimum level and determine the change in system cost (excluding the marginal cost of the manually changed technology). This gives you a set of marginal system values which you can compare with your LCOE to determine a curve for each technology, conditioned on all the other technologies and their costs in the system.

Some highlights from this research: (For reference, on an electricity only basis (IOW heat not included) France is 90g/kWh, UK is 220 down from 400 a few years ago, Germany is 400, Poland is 600, Denmark and Sweden are 50 or so.

-For shallow decarbonisation, down to about 100g/kWh, you don't need nuclear or CCS. Optimum systems are Wind/Solar/Battery/DSR/gas. -Down to 50g/kWh you just run your gas less frequently and need more battery technology. (Or if you have massive hydro you can down to this level with fewer batteries). The cost of batteries has a big impact on total system costs and there are plausible battery cost forecasts where this system is less expensive than most current power systems even without accounting for the costs to the climate.

-For deep decarbonisation, going down from 50 to 0, the system cost without nuclear or CCS goes up very rapidly. That's because above this point you're keeping your existing gas capacity around, just using it less. That requires a tariff mechanism to pay for capacity as well as energy but that's easily solved and in many places exist already. Below this point, even running your gas for a few weeks during winter peaks blows your budget. You therefore need to either:

--Build a lot more batteries, except now they're not being diurnally cycled but used for longer term storage which makes them way more expensive per kWh

--Overbuild renewables so that even when there is very little power produced from them it gets you through an overcast and windless period. This leaves you dumping excess power the rest of the year. There are groups who argue that if we did this, our economy would adapt to find a use for the excess power, which I'm sympathetic to. You need about 4x current peak in nameplate renewables capacity and a lot of batteries to do it in a heat-not-included scenario. This overbuild scenario is the one the models select and the cost is high because the model assumes excess power is wasted.

--Build nuclear or CCS, not necessarily a lot, but some. This is a little-goes-a-long-way type deal.

The system value of Hinckley Point C comes out as being between £80 and £150 / MWh, depending on when you assume the rest of the UK's AGRs will come offline. Remember that these are curves rather than points so its not a matter of this justifying infinite more nuclear at that point but determining the system difference between having a small amount of nuclear and none.

On that basis, the agreed strike price of £93 / MWh is high and difficult to justify on purely commercial basis but remember that long-term government decision making should be based on keeping pathways open and minimising regret. I think it was just about justifiable but I accept that with different assumptions about technology cost curves it might be suboptimal.

This report is a good read and was generated using my favourite model (my second favourite is the MIT GenX model but last time I checked that one doesn't do system operational constraints like reserve and frequency stability): https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/system/files/docs/2018/12/value_of_...

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#148

So a few notes on this in no particular order: 1) LCOE notwithstanding is new nuclear good value / likely to be a low regrets investment? 2) Why have previous EPRs been delayed and over budget? 3) Why is HPC so expensive? 4) Is there evidence that HPC, the predecessor is likely to be on-time / on-budget? 5) Therefore is this likely to be a good decision? The first one depends on whole-system modelling of energy syste…

Second point: Yo, WTF is up with the EPR?

Essentially EDF and Areva thought that since they were French and operated lots of nuclear power stations, they knew how to build them. This was wrong. You’re probably familiar with First of a Kind (FoaK) but there is also such a thing as First in a While. They made a number of mistakes early on in the EPR programme. (For reference, there have been six plants EPRs where construction has started. In order: Olkiluoto in Finland, Flamanville in France, Taishan 5 and 6 in China, HPC 1 and 2 in the UK) Sizewell would be numbers 7 and 8.

A brief aside on over-budget and over-time here. These are the same thing on complicated major infrastructure projects. Virtually all the costs are labour costs and these are all specialised skills so when they’re not working, you don’t just tell the contractors to go work on something else, you need to pay them the whole time they’re mobilised. A schedule delay = being over budget.

Most significant was the start of Olkiluoto construction before the detailed design was done. Starting construction before detailed design is very common in construction and it’s really more of a balancing act than a binary decision but in this case it was a very bad idea. There were substantial periods of time where thousands of people were being well paid to do nothing while Areva and other partners were working out design issues that held up the build.

Second was some absolutely unforgivable fuckery going on at the main forging works in France. The biggest single item in a PWR reactor is the forged pressure vessel which is made in enormous pieces, these pieces are then painstakingly welded together – each weld may take 100 passes in between each the weld is examined, cleaned, and the work pieces are heated up. There were documents being forged about quality control, really really bad stuff. As a result, the Flamanville vessel lid needs to be replaced very early in its life since it has defects that mean it will not last the 80 year design lifetime.

Third, there are non-up-to-specification welds in the main cooling lines at Flamanville, they’re in a place that is no longer reachable and so EDF has had to develop custom welding robots to fix them.

The two Chinese plants were somewhat late but not so over-budget. Part of the reason for that is China has a big nuclear construction programme so as soon as they needed to halt while a design issue was worked out, they sent all their nuclear qualified on-site staff to work on other projects.

Third: why is the agreed strike price for HPC so high?

First, the capital cost is high. The estimated capex was based on the cost it actually took to build Flamanville and Oikiluoto at least the latter of which has actually been built properly and is now entering final commissioning. That does mean that the capex estimate is more accurate than the much lower costs estimated before construction started on those plants.

Second, the strike price accounts for the entire construction risk sitting with EDF.

Third, EDF has had to finance the whole cost itself. If you built the same project using government borrowing costs the project would be much cheaper. (However this is an economically problematic view since government borrowing costs being low relies on a risk transfer to citizens, a matter on which I disagree with the National Audit Office).

Fourth: How’s HPC construction going?

So far, very well. The second unit is being built faster and more cheaply (remember – same thing) than the first. The timing is such that if you want to get maximum nth of a kind savings from building Sizewell C, you need to make a decision soon so that you can organise moving staff from one to the other. It is worth noting that econometric studies of nuke construction costs have shown that series building saves a huge amount of money so it would actually make no sense for the UK to build any non-EPR designs unless they have radically different characteristics like SMRs to justify it.

Finally: is it therefore the right decision to build Sizewell C?

Honestly. I do not 100% know and I am deeply suspicious of anyone who does. They either know more about it / have thought about it more than I have, and of course I accept that there are people who do and have. Or… they haven’t but are nonetheless sure of their position. My leaning is that long term government thinking should be aimed at actions that are near-optimal / low-regret in the greatest number of cases. Given the uncertainties around CCS as an alternative and the actual climate impact of methane leakage on the way to the CCS plant, the absolute over-riding-everything need to deal with our emissions and to do so as fast as we can, and the long construction time scales, I think it probably is the right decision to build at least this plant.

A decision on a third two-unit EPR does not need to be made until later and at that point we will know more about future technology developments. It may be that at that point we realise that not only do we not need a third but that we didn’t really need Sizewell and HPC either and therefore we will have spent more by 2050 to decarbonise than was optimal. Totally possible! The objective though is not to optimise in a fragile way but to create as many somewhat-optimal pathways as possible.

(disclosures: I make part of my income from working on wind, solar, battery and lately hydrogen projects. I've never worked on a nuclear project.)

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#149
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the whole UK energy grid could become fossil free, and the only cost would be a 2x increase in costs, then that would be to me a fair price to pay. A large number of people would die as a result of such a policy. Fuel poverty is already a significant problem, the UK government gives out 'winter fuel payment' benefits to some, but doubling the price of energy would push a lot of elderly, infirm, and poor people to…

https://www.businesselectricityprices.org.uk/historical/ They've already doubled. Now, of course this is more complex because some of that price rise is due to "levies" being placed to support both "green" initiatives and support for the vulnerable.

...and for nuclear. Look at how Hinkley point got subsidised.

Re: New nuclear plant at Sizewell set for green light

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its like the other projects, it may never generate a single kWh when it gets cancelled. Also, it will be much too late to avoid massive climate change so its a bit mute. And that's assuming we also cut all our other emissions and every other country on earth cuts theirs... Plus "no matter what the cost" is a pretty weird attitude if you don't mind me saying. If we can save more carbon by spending the same money el…

s/mute/moot/

Damn, too late to edit!
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