What’s so exciting about Postgres? • Hacker News Board

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#101

Post by edgyquant » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 5:38 AM UTC

hashtagmarkup wrote: post #100

edgyquant wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that that JSON isn’t being delivered via a js db but instead translated from data stored in a database written in C. So the “what about json” gotcha isn’t as good as it was made to seem.

My point is that JSON is being supported. So the "dismissal of facts" isn't as thoughtful as it was made to seem.

No it isn’t though? JSON is used, by developers, as an intermediary to exchange data pulled from a db. Your point that json is proof that the GP comment is false is not even a point but some kind of fallacy akin to a strawman.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#102

Post by hashtagmarkup » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 6:46 AM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #101

hashtagmarkup wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that JSON is being supported. So the "dismissal of facts" isn't as thoughtful as it was made to seem.

No it isn’t though? JSON is used, by developers, as an intermediary to exchange data pulled from a db. Your point that json is proof that the GP comment is false is not even a point but some kind of fallacy akin to a strawman.

Your inference of my intentions, as an intermediary to deflect from the facts presented, is proof that you're trying really hard to be edgy. Akin to a strawquant.

The people behind javascript provided the object notation technology that has been absorbed by Postgres. It is not only being used to exchange data (as a standard text field would be used), but can be used to QUERY data. The database is aware not only of the JSON text string representation, but of the object itself.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#103

Post by btschaegg » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 7:18 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #92

donw wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Inexperience grows from the bottom, I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse. That is quite possibly one of the best quotes I have heard on how to approach discipline in engineering.

I don't understand, can you please explain? > Inexperience grows from the bottom In what way? > I've gotten "better" by simply being too stubborn to get worse How does one get better by wanting to get worse? This makes no sense to me.

I read it as "refusing to get worse". Which implies that your environmnent is getting worse, making you better by comparison.

I'm not sure I agree, but I can understand the sentiment.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#104

Post by btschaegg » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 7:23 AM UTC

noir_lord wrote: post #39

systemvoltage wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is often downvoted to talk about the "javascript crowd" on HN, but I've worked in software industry long enough to unequivocally and with certainty say that it totally lives up to the cliches. It never gets old to scold people that are not serious, disciplined and principled in their endeavors that affect the rest of the world. Javascript community absolutely deserves the avalanche of criticisms they face. It is t…

I'm seeing this in action now, the difference between the backend code and the frontend code is stark and the backend code isn't up to my standard either (and my standards aren't that high, I know I'm merely competent for many places). It just seems to be the nature of the web side of things, lots of sloppiness. The devs are smart enough, they just don't think and it shows. That or they use something but clearly don'…

I agree about (and am frustrated by) everything you said here, but:

It's not just "the web side of things". Which makes it even more scary.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#105

Post by ivolimmen » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 8:32 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #32

axegon_ wrote: post #27

Apart from being the most mature relational database, I would argue the code that runs it. It's pure poetry. I am yet to see code this clean anywhere. Just opening any source code file at random[1] will show you exactly what I mean. [1] https://github.com/postgres/postgres/blob/master/src/backend...

Let's not get carried away. It is very much debatable which database is "most mature". Here is some discussions about how Postgres compares with Oracle DB (if $ is not an issue), it is often said that Postgres is a Cessna whereas Oracle DB is like a Fighter Jet: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24582937

I have been working with postgres for multiple years and in one project I needed to work with oracle. I actually ran into a bug in oracle db and they did not listen to us because we where a small company. We where working for a very large customer and asked that company to complain on our behalf at oracle. They they finally fixed it. Project was a large GIS project. I never had a say in the choice of database otherwise I would have chosen postgres. Oracle regularly crashed on complex spacial queries. At some point I left te company just to stop trying to fix that product. I think the only way of fixing the problem was a rewrite of the product that would use postgres. I hope I never work with oracle products in my life again.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#106

Post by noir_lord » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 9:07 AM UTC

watermelon59 wrote: post #99

noir_lord wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing this in action now, the difference between the backend code and the frontend code is stark and the backend code isn't up to my standard either (and my standards aren't that high, I know I'm merely competent for many places). It just seems to be the nature of the web side of things, lots of sloppiness. The devs are smart enough, they just don't think and it shows. That or they use something but clearly don'…

> That or they use something but clearly don't understand the thing they are using. You know, I feel like this has bled into backend development too. And it's not entirely the fault of engineers... or so I like to think, to excuse myself :P What worries me a lot is that I find myself being one of those people, not being able to fully help my situation. It's just... too much. It seems like every few months a new thing…

All of this.

I agree with all of it, particularly "Lets throw away X and switch to Y, we lose all the domain knowledge we have with X but Y others this absolutely tiny marginal improvement, so it's worth it!"

As a lead I spend a lot of time pushing back on adding stuff until someone has made the case why we should add it.

You want to use Y, great - document why you want to add Y, what benefit it brings, who runs Y, where is the code, how many maintainers does it have, is it well tested, if want to remove Y later is it a big job, what does it offer that we can't currently do etc.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#107

Post by snthd » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 9:44 AM UTC

>[unintelligible 00:08:02.01] "is to go hack on"

>[unintelligible 00:09:07.07]

"lemming status of developers"

>[unintelligible 00:19:16.22]

"laying in"

>[unintelligible 00:27:29.18]

"tables"

>[unintelligible 00:30:14.16]]

"recompete"

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#108

Post by spacemanmatt » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:13 AM UTC

watermelon59 wrote: post #99

noir_lord wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm seeing this in action now, the difference between the backend code and the frontend code is stark and the backend code isn't up to my standard either (and my standards aren't that high, I know I'm merely competent for many places). It just seems to be the nature of the web side of things, lots of sloppiness. The devs are smart enough, they just don't think and it shows. That or they use something but clearly don'…

> That or they use something but clearly don't understand the thing they are using. You know, I feel like this has bled into backend development too. And it's not entirely the fault of engineers... or so I like to think, to excuse myself :P What worries me a lot is that I find myself being one of those people, not being able to fully help my situation. It's just... too much. It seems like every few months a new thing…

I have been working with a guy who constantly avoids popular libraries. Constantly. And his product is constantly more accurate (factored, few bugs) and then he can document it without referring to any outside sources. It's pretty good discipline to write things yourself and only grow into libraries when you have proven you know what you need.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#109

Post by spacemanmatt » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:28 AM UTC

api wrote: post #55

fuhrysteve wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great practical note by Josh Berkus on why Uber left Posgresql. Basically: runaway table bloat because Uber had a usecase that postgres doesn't address as well as InnoDB. https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/5797D5A1.5030009%40agl...

The whole VACUUM paradigm is the biggest thing that bugs me about pgsql. The fact that it can actually freeze things always worries me. Can’t this happen constantly in the background like modern GCs?

I think you might be pleasantly surprised to get current on how vacuum works in current editions. Vacuum used to be a bigger issue for pg.

Re: What’s so exciting about Postgres?

#110

Post by spacemanmatt » Sat, Oct 31, 2020, 10:31 AM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #83

gigatexal wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Case insensitive search is accomplished with ILIKE no?

How well does ILIKE work with indexes? In MySQL the collation (which includes case- and accent-independency options) is known to the index.

You can stipulate the collation in the query if you need something non-default.