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Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

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Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#221

Post by spiderfarmer »

ojnabieoot wrote: post #217
spiderfarmer wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think city people should keep their opinions to themselves. You don't ask people in rural areas how cities should be organised either.

We do ask the federal/national government how cities and rural areas should be organized in a broad sense, which is really what’s going on with grey wolves in Wisconsin. More to the point: rural and urban citizens have the exact same interest in protecting endangered species. Making this a city-slickers vs country-bumpkins debate is just an exercise in resentment politics that obscures the actual debate.

I agree. But somehow city people have lot of opinions about farmers, what they should do, how they should think, how they should live their life. And I never see it the other way around.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#222

Post by pvaldes »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #206
abfan1127 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do you have information to back that claim up?

"It's a really romantic story," Utah State University ecologist Dan McNulty said. "It's a story about a world that doesn't really exist." https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/scientists-debun...

> "Is a really romantic history"

It still amazes me how often people think that biologists are stupid

Wolves return to Yellowstone has being ruminated, and I say ruminated, by scientists for 70 long years

All the possible results were examinated, there were lots of reports evaluating the project and all the benefits and cons were studied for decades, by lots and lots of well trained people. The effect of wolf in environment and its role as key species is described in conferences monographs and books.

Teams of scientists studied the populations of each single big mammal and bird in Yellowstone, before and after wolves. You can find their conclusions in the libraries of all universities specialized in ecology and animal management.

The results were even better than expected, but this was a big success because it was based in a entire life of previous hard work.

We talk about reviewed, easily verifiable and painfully verified facts, not about a pulp novel written on a weekend or somebody tossing a coin. Do you really think that somebody could just upload a fakebook video linking to a fake scientific article in this field without being detected and disclosed immediately?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#223

Post by dropofwill »

bigbubba wrote: post #185
dboreham wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans Well...I live in a place where we have (in my back yard, except for Bison) all the megafauna present since the ice age. In order of practical danger (most to least), they rank like this: Moose, Bear, Cougar, Snakes, ... Wolves. People are regularly attacked by Moose and fatalities have occurred in the past few decades. People are eaten by bears ever…

> Snakes Virtually every adult killed by snakes in America was asking for it. Rattlesnakes sure as shit know they can't eat humans and would never attempt it. They are named for the mechanism they use to scare us away and bite when that fails. A huge number of rattlesnake bites are to the face or hands because it happens when some moron ignores the rattle and picks up the snake. Wolves, unlike rattlesnakes do sometim…

Rattlesnakes actually don’t rattle that much, they rely a lot on camouflage. Also young ones won’t have fully developed rattles and older ones can lose them.

They will often strike without warning. It’s important to pay attention where you put your hands and feet when you’re in rattlesnake country.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#224

Post by [deleted] »

twothamendment wrote: post #144
NewOrderNow wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commenter told me to "grow a fucking vegetable" but I can't because a wolf keeps eating it. So now I have to murder a wolf or my family starves. See how this (aka life) works?

Yes, that is how life works. I have a fence around my garden/orchard. It is tall enough to keep the deer out, electrified to keep the bears out, netted to keep the birds out - but ground squirrels leave me no choice but to eliminate them from the area. If they would stay away, I wouldn't have to "murder" them. At least they don't go to waste, there are plenty of hungry things out there to move them up the food chain!

[deleted]

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#225

Post by bigbubba »

dropofwill wrote: post #223
bigbubba wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Snakes Virtually every adult killed by snakes in America was asking for it. Rattlesnakes sure as shit know they can't eat humans and would never attempt it. They are named for the mechanism they use to scare us away and bite when that fails. A huge number of rattlesnake bites are to the face or hands because it happens when some moron ignores the rattle and picks up the snake. Wolves, unlike rattlesnakes do sometim…

Rattlesnakes actually don’t rattle that much, they rely a lot on camouflage. Also young ones won’t have fully developed rattles and older ones can lose them. They will often strike without warning. It’s important to pay attention where you put your hands and feet when you’re in rattlesnake country.

They hide first, but will rattle when they think that has failed. Sometimes they bite first without rattling, particularly when startled, but they are less likely to use venom in those circumstances and those bites will generally be to the ankles or legs. Snakes only have self-preservation in mind when it comes to humans, never predation. They hid because they're scared, and they bite because they're scared. Their venom is meant primarily for catching meals but they'll use it in self defence when pressed.

In the past 20 years in America, 30 men have been killed by snakes, vs 6 women. Dudes trying to be macho by fucking with snakes explains most of this gap; many of them were bitten on the hands and the circumstances of many of the cases make it pretty clear the snake was being fucked with. Only a handful of incidents were likely genuine accidents.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#226

Post by maxerickson »

reddog wrote: post #220
dboreham wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans Well...I live in a place where we have (in my back yard, except for Bison) all the megafauna present since the ice age. In order of practical danger (most to least), they rank like this: Moose, Bear, Cougar, Snakes, ... Wolves. People are regularly attacked by Moose and fatalities have occurred in the past few decades. People are eaten by bears ever…

I'm not sure what constitues megafauna but I believe the two most deadly animals in North America are honey bees and deer. Bees beacuse of alergic reaction/anaphylactic shock after a sting and deer because they tend to dart in front of cars and motorcycles.

~100 lbs body weight is one rule of thumb.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#227

Post by maxerickson »

peterwwillis wrote: post #126
Filligree wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

"Solutions" like this are how we destroyed Yellowstone the first time, and why deer now run rampant all over the US, literally eroding forests from excessive grazing. A naive assumption about a complex system has knock-on effects that destroy the entire ecosystem.

Deer herds are managed large for hunting also. We could issue lots more doe permits and make herds smaller right quick.

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#228

Post by maxerickson »

dboreham wrote: post #160
Filligree wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not unreasonable. Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans . That the wolves, themselves, now have a deep-set fear of humanity and would only dare to do so if they're desperate and starving... is a distant second to that same deep-set cultural fear of wolves. Unpopular Opinion Time: The ecosystem damage from not having apex predators is large enough that it might be worth a few human li…

> Wolves are among the few predators that can and will attack humans Well...I live in a place where we have (in my back yard, except for Bison) all the megafauna present since the ice age. In order of practical danger (most to least), they rank like this: Moose, Bear, Cougar, Snakes, ... Wolves. People are regularly attacked by Moose and fatalities have occurred in the past few decades. People are eaten by bears ever…

One theory is that humans ate a bunch of these animals to extinction:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_animals...

(The Holocene is the period after the glaciers last receded)

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#229

Post by 1-more »

pcmaffey wrote: post #24
1-more wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, a hunter spends hours or days to kill one animal reasonably quickly. A farm slaughters thousands of animals after raising them in absolutely cruel conditions. If I had the goal to make animals suffer fewer creature-hours of pain then faced with the choice to either ban hunting or ban livestock, I'd go with livestock. However if you're vegetarian, vegan, or raise your own livestock then I salute you as having a co…

Wolves are not livestock.

No they aren't. What's that have to do with anything?

Re: Gray Wolves to Be Removed from Endangered Species List

#230

Post by dropofwill »

bigbubba wrote: post #225
dropofwill wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rattlesnakes actually don’t rattle that much, they rely a lot on camouflage. Also young ones won’t have fully developed rattles and older ones can lose them. They will often strike without warning. It’s important to pay attention where you put your hands and feet when you’re in rattlesnake country.

They hide first, but will rattle when they think that has failed. Sometimes they bite first without rattling, particularly when startled, but they are less likely to use venom in those circumstances and those bites will generally be to the ankles or legs. Snakes only have self-preservation in mind when it comes to humans, never predation. They hid because they're scared, and they bite because they're scared. Their ve…

Yeah, totally agree, no doubt macho men will try to play stupid games. That's not a snake problem.

I was bitten on the ankle as a teenager (luckily as you said, it didn't use venom), at the time I was pretty surprised it was silent.

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