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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#931

Post by 1_over_n »

ben0x539 wrote: post #205
1_over_n wrote: post #134

It would be intersting to watch all of the other presentations from this confrence. Did any one else, perhaps not as high profile, make any comments which could be agreed as worthy of a CoC violation? What happened? Jeremy Howard has done a LOT for the machine learning community and the world because he really has democratised machine learning and made it extremely accessible for people. Not just with free lecture vi…

Why are you trying to catch them being hypocritical? A hypothetical situation where multiple talks violated the CoC but attendants only reported one talk and so the conference only took action against one speaker doesn't seem like a huge problem. Like, sure, maybe they should have CoC cops sit through each gathering compromising material just so that it's perfectly fair, but I don't think that's the best use of conf…

Well given it’s a data science orientated conf shouldn’t a more scientific approach to be taking the judging whether this violation was in line with the norms of other talks given at the conference. They could randomly sample 4-5 talks if watching every single one is too much time.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#932

Post by MauranKilom »

thaneross wrote: post #912
MauranKilom wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some degree, you are correct. But I believe you underestimate the amount of abuse and harassment that certain groups of people face in reality. > We've been working fine like that, both online and in the real world without any CoC I'm not sure what you consider "fine". Misogyny has been par for the course for a long time. Not to mention verbal degradation of e.g. ethnicity, gender, and sexuality. We have not sudde…

> you underestimate the amount of abuse and harassment that certain groups of people face While I don't think this point is necessarily wrong, surely we can agree that in recent years there has been expansion of what is considered abuse. As with any push to change ideas, not everyone is on-board. Is being subjected to a micro-aggression abuse? 20 years ago you'd only get a "yes" from a few activists / academics. Toda…

> surely we can agree that in recent years there has been expansion of what is considered abuse.

Indeed! See "Misogyny was par for the course". I understand that's not what you are getting at specifically, but the whole point is that just because it's been acceptable before doesn't mean that it's right.

> We don't all agree on the new rules, and CoCs are a method of making everyone follow them.

Exactly! The intent is to cause a change in behavior, and that's not going to happen if everybody has to sign off on it. Most people don't like having to change their behavior.

Again, CoC enforcement is not without its flaws, and policing interpersonal interaction is never going to be a hard and fast thing. But CoCs give everyone tools to nudge behavior away from what is objectively causing (subjective) distress.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#933

Post by Aeolun »

mcny wrote: post #698
Aeolun wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, TIL I’m a sexist and/or racist.

> Huh, TIL I’m a sexist and/or racist. I think the meta is we have to understand we are all *-ist at some level. This is the world we were born and raised in and it is incredibly silly for me to suggest that I am somehow above my nurture. Of course, I will deny everything if you find my real name and attach it to this post because we can't really say this out loud but just between us I think the key is to understand…

I agree, but I think it’s silly that we have to pretend to agree with stupid SJW policies just because people are afraid of the backlash if someone traces their account name back to their real name.

Since it’s fairly unlikely for similar resistance to have any effect on my career, I kind of feel inclined to always respond according to what I think, instead of what people like to hear.

In this case it actually garnered downvotes, which I found fairly surprising, given, like you said, that we all have inherent biases.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#934

Post by krainboltgreene »

googthrowaway42 wrote: post #272
tptacek wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consult the search bar below to disabuse yourself of the notion that "intelligent people" have had any trouble discussing their qualms about codes of conduct until now.

I can assure you that speaking out against CoCs under your real name in a professional context can be quite difficult. The people who tend to create, promote, and defend CoCs tend to engage in incredibly Kafkaesque and pathological behavior as a matter of course. As far as HN goes, I use the term "intelligent" quite loosely but one of the hallmarks of intelligence is pattern recognition.

> I can assure you that speaking out against CoCs under your real name in a professional context can be quite difficult.

Christ I wish.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#935

Post by belorn »

Volundr wrote: post #920
belorn wrote: post #919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN guideline is a set policies and conflict resolution document. The purpose of those are to define the community focus and get people back to cooperation if members start to falls into argument and conflict. An CoC on the other hand is exclusively about removal of members to achieve additional goals set by the CoC. It identify who is an "other" and gives power to a small group to opaquely remove the individual witho…

> An CoC on the other hand is exclusively about removal of members to achieve additional goals set by the CoC. Source? It seems like your assigning motives to others rather than listening to what they have to say. > Instead they exercised the power granted by the CoC. If you actually read the parent you'd know they explicitly did not follow the CoC. The CoC sets out a process very much like the one you described in w…

Let say the enforcement team had a discussion with everyone involved and got all accounts of what happened. What would the purpose and motive be? To collect evidence, to determine if a person is guilty or not, and to measure out punishment if guilty.

The goal of conflict resolution is not about determining who is guilty and measuring out punishment, but rather to deescalate situation and fixing problems before there is a need for someone to be punished. The best moderation are those that are not seen because intervention occurred early and without escalating something small into something big.

The primary evidence for this exist in the names and words used in the CoC. A Enforcement Team is distinctly different than a Conflict Resolution team. A group full of mediators is different from a group full of enforcers. Enforcement is a different word from moderation.

If a CoC were focused on conflict resolution and had teams full of mediators, and where enforcement only came afterward when the mediators has failed and there exist documented proof of failed deescalation, only then would we have a situation where a CoC and a guideline would be much more similar in purpose, method and result. In which case the CoC enforcement would likely be called under a different name.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#936

Post by baobabKoodaa »

jawarner wrote: post #894
baobabKoodaa wrote: post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think pindab0ter would agree that it was improper enforcement of the CoC. I'm not sure anybody can speak to the intentions of the people that reported it with certainty. Let's stop the speculation on what pindab0ter would or would not agree with. Clearly you and I interpret their message in completely different ways, so unless they want to come back to clarify their statement, let's just stop with the speculation…

pindab0ter said: > This discussion is about someone being punished by a committee for something that wasn’t in the CoC, as you can read in the article. I said: > I think pindab0ter would agree that it was improper enforcement of the CoC Does that seem like speculation? This thread is getting a little disjointed. We can't seem to agree on anything.

Yes, you are speculating that pindab0ter would think the enforcement action was related to the CoC, even though pindab0ter clearly said that the enforcement action was not related to the CoC.

We already went over this; you interpret pindab0ter's message in an entirely different way than I do. When pindab0ter says "punished by a committee for something that wasn’t in the CoC", you somehow interpret that as "improper enforcement of the CoC", whereas I interpret that as enforcement action unrelated to the CoC.

Anyway, there's no point continuing this. I think it's pretty clear what pindab0ter was trying to say, but you have a completely different interpretation. Unless pindab0ter wants to come back and clarify, let's just stop this here.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#937

Post by ForHackernews »

monksy wrote: post #850
Volundr wrote: post #845

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually agree that banning you was probably a bit much but let's actually look at the chain of events from your own account here. You post "WTF @conferenceorgs". They warn you about swearing at their staff (I probably wouldn't treat it this way, but we do all know what the F stands for). You respond by... swearing at their staff? When you get a warning, then respond to that warning by repeating the offense it's…

The language was never directed at their staff. It was directed towards the communication I got from them, and how I believe it makes the org look themselves(note). The tagging was to alert them that it was going on. Attacking individuals is completely unwarranted. -- For the sake of conversion: What counts as harassment- is the org an individual? Does exclaiming frustration for a situation and getting the attention…

Then stop paying them $30k! Cussing at their underpaid support staff is pointless. Companies are not human; they only understand money.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#938

Post by blackboxlogic »

username90 wrote: post #822
blackboxlogic wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My hypothesis: a minority of adults with poor judgement cause legitimate problems. Organizers react appropriately and remove the person. Being expelled is scary! This person, or others fearing the same, ask "what rule did they break, is this rule applied fairly?". And the easiest way to make it less scary is to publish "rules".

If it isn't obvious that the person is a bigger problem than everyone else yet still get kicked out then the community isn't a place I'd like to be in. Either it is full of shitty people or people get kicked out for dubious reasons.

More hypothesis: Not all big problems are obvious. Perhaps I saw person 1 touch person 2's bottom, and person 1 was never seen again. If organizers resolved the situation quietly, and the casual observer doesn't have context (was the bottom touching consentual?) that could lead to uncertainty. Perhaps: I like touching bottoms (with consent), is /that/ going to get me kicked out? (Work: yes. Dance: no)

If you can accept that a small portion of adults have judgement poor enough to cause big problems, then it doesn't seem like a big leap to accept that another larger portion of adults have judgement at a level which lacks confidence to trust assumptions in uncomfortable, high risk situations. Perhaps this is the group served by CoC?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#939

Post by jawarner »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #936
jawarner wrote: post #894

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pindab0ter said: > This discussion is about someone being punished by a committee for something that wasn’t in the CoC, as you can read in the article. I said: > I think pindab0ter would agree that it was improper enforcement of the CoC Does that seem like speculation? This thread is getting a little disjointed. We can't seem to agree on anything.

Yes, you are speculating that pindab0ter would think the enforcement action was related to the CoC, even though pindab0ter clearly said that the enforcement action was not related to the CoC. We already went over this; you interpret pindab0ter's message in an entirely different way than I do. When pindab0ter says "punished by a committee for something that wasn’t in the CoC", you somehow interpret that as "improper e…

> Yes, you are speculating that pindab0ter would think the enforcement action was related to the CoC

That's not what I said.

You seem to be focused on detailed differences in meaning but missing the thrust of these arguments. You claimed Scotsman fallacy to a perceived specific meaning of the sentence, but it didn't fit in context. In general you seem to be not aware of the contextual meaning of what anybody has said here.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#940

Post by jawarner »

skinkestek wrote: post #930
jawarner wrote: post #910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's clear you've had experiences that have caused you to feel unsafe at times in your life. What's stopping you from having empathy for people that feel that way currently? One aspect of this newfangled definition of safe is that women can feel confident existing in a space without fear of being sexually harassed. Is that worth considering? Is that a political game?

> It's clear you've had experiences that have caused you to feel unsafe at times in your life. What's stopping you from having empathy for people that feel that way currently? That the current approach is playing right into the hands of the bullies. Or do you think it is the awkward ones who are sitting on the CoC tribunal? As far as I can see this is yet another place for the socially and politically strong ones to…

> Or do you think it is the awkward ones who are sitting on the CoC tribunal?

Would it be fair to say that you believe the majority of CoC reports are due to a misunderstanding of a well-intentioned behavior on the part of an awkward individual? If so, where does this idea come from?

> It is absolutely worth considering such things, which is why we (at least were I live) have laws against such things, and also why I am in favour of those laws.

To pursue something legally requires a formal legal process, evidence, lawyers, etc., and has strict penal consequences. Would you consider there is a need for a more informal process where the consequences is being kicked out of an event?

> I'm absolutely fine with women feeling safe.

But you aren't fine with an organization creating rules to help women feel safe. Why is it an abuse of power, acting as "judge, jury and executioner," to remove someone from an event or organization who causes women to feel uncomfortable?

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