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MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

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Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#131
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean for this to come off rude, but how can you be so cold? How can you lack so much empathy? At some point you have to learn that things matter to people. Volunteer projects rely on an unspoken contract that symbolic recognition, awarded fairly, is a real motivation. And if a project wants to succeed, it needs to take that seriously. Does the project owe its contributors anything? Legally, no. But if it want…

> Does the project owe its contributors anything? Legally, no. Uh, what? Legally, yes . Why are so many people (see sibling below: "Perhaps legally, in this case, they're owed nothing") just rolling with the suggestion that this is a grey moral issue and not a legal one? It's more than a moral issue. This is Creative Commons content. Mozilla doesn't acquire ownership of project contributors' work... Once again, we ha…

> Why are so many people (see sibling below: "Perhaps legally, in this case, they're owed nothing") just rolling with the suggestion that this is a grey moral issue and not a legal one?

I mean, I dedicated an entire paragraph above that comment to pointing out moral possible legal problems, and used "perhaps" as an explicit indicator of uncertainty and doubt. The moral issue isn't particularly grey. The legal one...

There are various attributions for "Mozilla Contributors". Does that technically suffice under either the license terms or in juristictions which recognize authors rights? (What juristiction(s) apply - hosting provider, Mozilla's headquarters, or perhaps the original authors?) Do they perhaps more explicitly attribute the original authors elsewhere? Certainly stripping names from an explicit copyright header would almost certainly be a license violation, but does flattening VCS history in the manner also count as one? Did CC licensing terms apply at the time of previous CMS conversions? Were there perhaps contributor agreements and/or clickwrap licensing agreements previously which would've made this legal? Are there more buried attributions which might technically meet the burden of attribution while still being done poorly enough to feel slighted? Perhaps in some juristictions but not in others?

Can you answer all that with enough certainty as to assert that you "have any idea what you're talking about"?

> What is it about Mozilla that attracts this sort of thing?

Both sides offering takes that reveal that neither has any idea what they're talking about is far from unique to threads involving Mozilla. I dare say it's not even unique to the internet.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#132
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's completely clear from context that the references are to the project as a human organization , not its content. Obviously recognition is given by organizers... not by Creative Commons-licensed content, ha! Unless text has become sentient now. :) But I don't know why you're then choosing to baselessly insult people who discuss things about Mozilla...? Call me crazy, but I don't think that's a helpful or c…

> baselessly insult people who discuss things about Mozilla...? It's neither baseless nor is it an attitude that is not "helpful"—I laid out exactly what the basis for the comment is, which comes almost directly from Frank Hecker's post a couple months ago after the most recent layoffs: > Incidentally, doing a Twitter search on ”Mozilla” gives a good feel for public perception of Mozilla among technologists, but unfo…

> I don't really know what your first two sentences about human organizations and context are supposed to mean.

They're mean that you have completely misinterpreted the conversation, and apparently continue to do so.

The discussion started about moral responsibility. You're the only one confusing it with legal responsibility. And that's pretty much that.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#133

So, they say that the system is evolving, but from these parts of the article I would argue that the ease of contributing (which is the important part) is taking a massive hit: > "you will no longer be able to click Edit on a page, make and save a change, and have it show up nearly immediately on the page. You’ll also no longer be able to do your edits in a WYSIWYG editor." > "you won’t have a WYSIWYG to instantly se…

> Now users have to learn GitHub and author raw HTML! Ignoring the fact Microsoft's Github has recently had DMCA insanity, a proprietary frontend, and recently enforced Webcomponents (effectively removing UXP devs who were forced to self-host Gitea just to continue working)... this seems like Mozilla is trying to outsource as much as possible from their own hosting. They also shutdown Firefox Send. Perhaps Mozilla is…

What is UXP, and how is it affected by GitHub's decision to use WebComponents in their frontend?

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#134
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does the project owe its contributors anything? Legally, no. Uh, what? Legally, yes . Why are so many people (see sibling below: "Perhaps legally, in this case, they're owed nothing") just rolling with the suggestion that this is a grey moral issue and not a legal one? It's more than a moral issue. This is Creative Commons content. Mozilla doesn't acquire ownership of project contributors' work... Once again, we ha…

> Why are so many people (see sibling below: "Perhaps legally, in this case, they're owed nothing") just rolling with the suggestion that this is a grey moral issue and not a legal one? I mean, I dedicated an entire paragraph above that comment to pointing out moral possible legal problems, and used "perhaps" as an explicit indicator of uncertainty and doubt. The moral issue isn't particularly grey. The legal one...…

> The moral issue isn't particularly grey. The legal one...

Also not grey—same as before.

> Can you answer all that with enough certainty as to assert that you "have any idea what you're talking about"?

Hey there. I'm a former Mozillian. I was a heavy contributor to Devmo in its early days (2006–2008). A bunch of that content is mine. It's not Mozilla's, and I know on what terms I made it available. So to answer your question quoted above (a) yes, in fact, I do know what I'm talking about, and (b) I don't have to be able to give an answer for every slot in your contrived matrix; it suffices if I'm able to say, "hey, you can't do that with the pieces that belong to me". And that's something that I can say—with certainty.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#135

So, they say that the system is evolving, but from these parts of the article I would argue that the ease of contributing (which is the important part) is taking a massive hit: > "you will no longer be able to click Edit on a page, make and save a change, and have it show up nearly immediately on the page. You’ll also no longer be able to do your edits in a WYSIWYG editor." > "you won’t have a WYSIWYG to instantly se…

> Now users have to learn GitHub and author raw HTML! Ignoring the fact Microsoft's Github has recently had DMCA insanity, a proprietary frontend, and recently enforced Webcomponents (effectively removing UXP devs who were forced to self-host Gitea just to continue working)... this seems like Mozilla is trying to outsource as much as possible from their own hosting. They also shutdown Firefox Send. Perhaps Mozilla is…

Well given they laid off a Huge number of people while containing to pay their Executive HUGE salaries it seems their priorities is not on product development at all

Sadly I think we are seeing Mozilla go the way of Netscape, and I would not be surprised if they sell off all the IP to someone soon

or just make FireFox yet another Chromium Skin

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They had a user-friendly system previously... Now users have to learn GitHub and author raw HTML! - I would point out that not all documentation writers are developers! So you'll need to know HTML and how to create a Pull Request on GitHub to be able contribute to documentation about web development... I feel like if you're writing about web development topics, that doesn't seem like a high bar to pass.

The friction is higher. Now you have to deal with github and accounts and permissions and so on. Before it was a simple web form.

Well, now balance that against the rest of the upsides they present, like the new UX not being to merely revert the changes that you spent the weekend writing.

Let's stop acting like just because we can think of one downside that we can ignore the rest of the trade-offs. Btw this is a trade-off they already mentioned in TFA rehashed by an HN comment for some reason.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#137
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not trying to be inflammatory here. What does it matter if Microsoft has a proprietary front end for Github when all the docs are in markdown?

One example would be it is not possible to even make a PR request on Github as half the GUI no longer works in non-WebComponents browers. If it were open source we could perhaps see what WebComponent feature they think is missing and implement it in the browser engine, as it is they do not have any desire to collaborate and the black box makes it all the more difficult to debug. Github's response: "... further degrad…

If you've chosen to use a web browser that's forked from an old version of Firefox and isn't aiming for compatibility with modern Web Platform Tests, you're going to encounter a lot of obstacles. The fact that you can't see the server-side code generating the failing client-side code, which you can see, seems like the least of them.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#138

So, they say that the system is evolving, but from these parts of the article I would argue that the ease of contributing (which is the important part) is taking a massive hit: > "you will no longer be able to click Edit on a page, make and save a change, and have it show up nearly immediately on the page. You’ll also no longer be able to do your edits in a WYSIWYG editor." > "you won’t have a WYSIWYG to instantly se…

> They had a user-friendly system previously

TFA goes into why this wasn't user friendly. You haven't responded to their own justifications. You've just reposted a trade-off that the TFA acknowledges and justifies.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#139

> Better community building: At the moment, MDN content edits are published instantly, and then reverted if they are not suitable. This is really bad for community relations. With a PR model, we can review edits and provide feedback, actually having conversations with contributors, building relationships with them, and helping them learn. This is a longstanding debate in wiki/collaboratively written content, but it i…

Being able to have defense/discussion about your documentation edit is something sorely lacking on wiki platforms that you get in pull requests.

Frankly, I always felt the wiki model pretty much a show-stopper to making any real edits with no good UI for commit review and a good UI for having a granular discussion about your changes. Instead the UX is to burn a lot of time getting a large change through a bunch of potential reversion cycles while trying to communicate through talk page(s). It's a hoop that selects for die hards.

Re: MDN Web Docs evolves: Lowdown on the upcoming new platform

#140
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they actually fund localisations? I'm unfamiliar with their process, but this article game me an impression that it was completely community driven.

Yes, absolutely. Approximately nobody translates technical documentation for fun, much less at such a high level. The article is pretty clear that the number of languages supported is a business decision.

Wikimedia/Wikipedia show that people do translate for fun (I do it myself on the wiki software website), so I'm not sure how you have that blindspot.

Your comment is the same as people who saw the launch of Wikipedia and wondered who could possibly write articles and find citations for fun.

Hell, who would write hundreds of thousands of wiki articles about The Elder Scrolls universe for fun? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Main_Page

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