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It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

techeffect.substack.com

261–270 of 325 posts

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand we are at risk of large populations being displaced. But you seem to be under the impression we are facing a human extinction event, is that something backed up by science?

I think that’s a risk on the right tail, although not a very likely one. But even the modal outcomes — 2 or 3 K of warming relative to the preindustrial baseline — will likely kill hundreds of millions of humans and lead to the extinction of countless nonhuman plant and animal species. I’m comfortable saying that we should do whatever possible to mitigate that outcome instead of focusing on creating Martian bunkers f…

> even the modal outcomes ... will likely kill hundreds of millions of humans

Once we are dealing with scenarios where hundreds of millions of humans are dying, it becomes harder to rule out the possibility of some desperate political or military leader resorting to using nuclear weapons. From there it is a small step to full nuclear war and the deaths of billions of humans.

Perhaps the "optimistic" scenarios are ones in which the hundreds of millions of humans that die are located far away from any nuclear armed countries, or at least those countries aren't destabilised by the economic and migration consequences of those deaths. I can, unfortunately, imagine militaries being routinely used this century for wiping out the remaining civilian populations of failed states.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can change Mars in large ways. Lots of stuff written about that. Heck, we could redirect an icy asteroid to collide, providing water, atmosphere and heat. On the order of decades from now.

>We can change Mars in large ways. No we can't. The gravity of Mars is always going to be a problem. The lack of magnetic field is always going to be a problem. Most of its atmosphere was lost to space and there is not enough water on the planet to replenish. >we could redirect an icy asteroid to collide, providing water, atmosphere and heat. I read the Mars trilogy too. >On the order of decades from now. Sure.

>>We can change Mars in large ways.

>No we can't. The gravity of Mars is always going to be a >problem. The lack of magnetic field is always going to be a >problem. Most of its atmosphere was lost to space and there >is not enough water on the planet to replenish.

Nothing a world house could not fix:

https://www.orionsarm.com/eg-article/51f7d32f54b72

Bonus point - it can be built incrementally, so you get immediate results instead of waiting for generations of effort to get anything back as with planet wide terraforming!

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#263
Awfull article. There might have been a nuanced point in there if it wasn't infested with politics beyond the scope of the article. To talk about Trump and his plans for NASA are relevant, so are the effects of severe technological progress on our daily lives. Yet to then reference Trumps relationship with the media and to claim he has destroyed trust in american insitutions and link an article about how "This has led to a wholly new and different, but still very real, wave of destruction [reffering to coronavirus misinformation]." is so completely sidestepping any usefull discussion about space exploration. (Yes, there are also references to Nazi's)

nonetheless I feel like pointing out some actual claims.

"Indeed, the idea that technological developments will solve all of our problems —eventually allowing us to leave Earth — is instrumental to political mobilization on behalf of the powers that be. It [the idea of technological developments] helps to perpetuate the current socio-economic system that is designed for the one percent to stay in power and the working class to stay working."

Technological developments have been awfull at 'keeping the 1% in power'. If technological developments truly made sure that 'the 1%' would stay in power then Bill gates as an example wouldn't have been able to go from his 'working class' status to the top 0.0001% using technological developments. The author's statement couldn't be further from the truth, unless you are of the opinion that the 1% ought to be so immoral that they dont deserve to exist in the new world of technology.

"the wealth divide between the global billionaires and the bottom half of humanity is steadily growing" When has this NOT been the case? If I manage to aquire any wealth or influence in this world I would give it to those I know that deserve it. This probaly means someone close to me rather than an unknown person who might have needed it more. If parents want anything it is to give their kids the best oppertunities to prosper. What more could you ask for than a millionaire willing to pay a piano teacher for their kid?

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those explorers always have the luxury of going back to civilisation after relatively short excursions into the unknown. I doubt many people are willing to live the entirety of their lives in constant danger and constrained resources. And even fewer of those people will have the skills needed to run a complex technological society (and you will need a lot of technology to survive on Mars).

>Those explorers always have the luxury of going back to civilisation after relatively short excursions into the unknown. I doubt many people are willing to live the entirety of their lives in constant danger and constrained resources. Yet a very large majority of North America is descended from people who did exactly that.

[deleted]

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those explorers always have the luxury of going back to civilisation after relatively short excursions into the unknown. I doubt many people are willing to live the entirety of their lives in constant danger and constrained resources. And even fewer of those people will have the skills needed to run a complex technological society (and you will need a lot of technology to survive on Mars).

Colonists to the new world of the Americas didn't count on going back.

There was a constant string of boats going back to England and many people did so. What kept people in the America’s was they where better off there than Europe not the inability to leave.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are really underestimating exponential growth in your assertion that there is no such thing as overpopulation on a universal scale. If human population is doubling say, every century, then the time it takes for us to go from populating the earth to the entire galaxy in less than 4000 years[1], and from there to the entire universe in less than another 4000. [1]: There are a few trillion planets in our galaxy. If…

Well, the universe is likely infinite, so no, there's really no such thing as overpopulation on a universal scale. But talking about humans populating the universe is also meaningless, since the speed of light and expansion of the universe means we can't reach anything but a tiny fraction of it, and by the time we have the technology to travel quickly enough to even begin contemplating intergalactic journeys only a f…

s/universe/universe observable to humans/

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#267
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evolution has geared us for this world. We might be able to cobble together a survival elsewhere, but I doubt we could ever thrive. People on Earth thrived in the Arctic, which is incredibly far from the savannas of Africa, and did this with the technology of 10,000 years ago. Saying that people with the technology of 1000 years from now can't possibly thrive on an airless rock is a little pessimistic to me. And th…

> People on Earth thrived in the Arctic Can you define "thrive"? Because according to my definitions, I wouldn't "thrive" if I lived there - I would actually "cobble together a survival" like the parent wrote, and think I'm not in a minority that thinks so.

Well, they thrived enough to pose a serious challenge to Vikings in Greenland - and might have been a big part of their eventual downfall there.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#268
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can't be an economic incentive, only political ones. Much like pilgrims who founded Massachusetts, founders of space habitats will be groups of people who don't enjoy living on Earth badly enough (due to persecution, or because of desire of some grand reforms) to fund a move elsewhere. I bet the first Martian colony will quickly be recognized as a place not controllable by any Earth government, and that will be…

There are hundreds of asteroids that have more wealth than the entire US federal debt. Consider all the precious metals ever mined on the planet. Now consider this is litterally scratching the surface of the total contained within the planet. Note, these dense metals will be concentrated toward the planets core, due to gravity. The asteroid belt easily holds our planet's mass, but it is all spread thinly and relative…

There's still the minor detail of transporting it back to Earth in a cost effective way…

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#269
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a false dichotomy.

I was mocking a false dichotomy... Covid crisis -> we have to cut space funding.

I wasn't even presenting a dichotomy let alone a false one. There have been a number of issues that have shown an increased urgency over the last several months, not just COVID. As those other issues become more urgent, space exploration falls further and further down many people's list of priorities for funding.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#270
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There can't be an economic incentive, only political ones. Much like pilgrims who founded Massachusetts, founders of space habitats will be groups of people who don't enjoy living on Earth badly enough (due to persecution, or because of desire of some grand reforms) to fund a move elsewhere. I bet the first Martian colony will quickly be recognized as a place not controllable by any Earth government, and that will be…

I would imagine that any colony would be dependent on Earth (for survival) for quite a while. I think that it would take a certain level of self-sufficiency in order to reach a point of not being controllable by earth. Being far away is one thing, but when I look at how powers on Earth exert influence and control over others, it seems you also need to be self-sufficient (protection from blockades, trade embargoes, or…

Maybe that will be MAD for the 23rd century - you blow up our habitats, we'll drop rocks on your cities.
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