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It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

techeffect.substack.com

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Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#101

Post by criddell »

mortenjorck wrote: post #58

Life has spent 3.5 billion years adapting to the peculiarities of this planet. There’s undoubtedly much we have yet to learn about the universe, and exploring it is the obvious way to learn. Yet I have long seen it as the height of hubris to think we could replace this planet from which we arose. Everything from gravity to day length to soil composition, never mind the atmosphere which is at least theoretically repro…

You don't think over the next, say, hundred million years our descendants could adapt equally well to other worlds?

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#102

Post by res0nat0r »

Dig1t wrote: post #80
res0nat0r wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk (while Elon isn't posting moronic nonsense on Twitter) would take all the money they've invested in their pet projects trying to colonize Mars and the like and directly invested it in local programs to get some of the worst areas in the USA affected by homelessness fixed, it would likely have a greater impact on more peoples lives than what they're doing now IMO.

The goal is not to impact the lives of individuals. The goal is to preserve intelligence in the event of a catastrophe. As far as we know, we are the only part of the universe that is capable of consciousness. The argument is that it is worth going to great lengths to insure against species-wide disasters (e.g. runaway global warming, giant meteor, World War 3) Its macro-level thinking versus micro-level.

The earth becoming uninhabitable due to climate change is going to happen way sooner than any pipe dream of folks trying to live on Mars, if they were really concerned about preserving the human species they would be putting billions of dollars into that instead.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#103

Post by diab0lic »

zekrioca wrote: post #52
ovi256 wrote: post #29

This is a restatement of the "we shouldn't do anything in Space until we solve (all/most/the most important) problems on Earth" argument. If our ancestors would have used this they'd never would have, say, colonized the Americas, or even left Africa. Because there's always something broken at home. Has there been a single moment in history that would have satisfied that argument ?

There were people living in the Americas before your ancestors arrived there.

> or even left Africa.

I think it's pretty clear the parent post is talking about the first people to migrate to the Americas.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#104

Post by nostromo »

aeturnum wrote: post #88

I agree that for every resource we need, getting that resource on earth (if it exists on earth) will always make more sense than seeking it in space. Humanity should always seek to fulfill its needs from terrestrial sources. We shouldn't mistake space exploration for infrastructure building. At the same time - this doesn't mean we shouldn't explore space! Just that we should understand that exploration as low-to-no-r…

I don't agree about sourcing supplies on Earth for the simple reason that mining operations on Earth ravage the countryside and leave it permanently dead and poisoned.

https://edgy.app/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/mining.jpg

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/2d6c839bf3889ca045acde28...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Pit

Many of these minerals exist in abundance on astroids, and I would love to see us protect the Earth by mining there instead of here.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#105

Post by nobody9999 »

save_ferris wrote: post #12
GenerocUsername wrote: post #3

I've seen more anti-space rhetoric in the last few weeks than ever before in my life. What gives? Great advancements have cost. That doesn't make them not worth doing

It's not that great advancements have cost. The argument is that focusing on space exploration deflects from facing the realities of climate change on our planet. If people start to think that space exploration could yield a solution to an increasingly uninhabitable climate on Earth, it could create a scenario where we spend even more on space exploration and less on addressing Earth's climate.

>The argument is that focusing on space exploration deflects from facing the realities of climate change on our planet.

Does it? It's not an either/or proposition.

Researching and developing technologies to allow humans to live in space in a sustainable way seems like it would almost certainly also create applications of such technology that can benefit us on Earth.

Whether that's methods to scrub the atmosphere of a space-based habitat of toxins/pollutants, utilize waste in productive ways and a raft of other stuff would be incredibly useful on Earth.

As an aside, I'd point out that even if we start colonizing space habitats, other planets and/or even planets around other stars, there are no technologies available or imagined that could transport colonists from the Earth faster than birth rates would replace them and continue population growth.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#106

Post by macspoofing »

Justsignedup wrote: post #93
johnmorrison wrote: post #13

This is frankly a blatantly wrong and quite foolish argument. Space exploration has already created many significant benefits for humanity on Earth , by advancing hundreds of new technologies with terrestrial applications and launching satellite networks that support a safer, more peaceful world for humans, with improved agricultural efficiencies as well as advanced warning and a better understanding of extreme weath…

I think it is important to understand differences: The future of humanity is not only on earth. Too much risk, too limited resources. HOWEVER the future of humanity in space is NOT "tomorrow we lift off a giant spaceship with everyone on it." If we survive a few hundred years we might see some amount of human civilization outside of earth, but for many hundreds of years after more practical space tech comes about mos…

>The future of humanity is not only on earth.

Where are you going to go?

Outside of Earth, there is no place for us in the entire Solar System. Sure we may build some research stations here and there, just as we did in inhospitable places on Earth (like Antarctica), but there's no long-term option anywhere. Interstellar travel is science fiction, but even if it wasn't, there is no place for us to go as well.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#107

Post by JoeAltmaier »

mortenjorck wrote: post #58

Life has spent 3.5 billion years adapting to the peculiarities of this planet. There’s undoubtedly much we have yet to learn about the universe, and exploring it is the obvious way to learn. Yet I have long seen it as the height of hubris to think we could replace this planet from which we arose. Everything from gravity to day length to soil composition, never mind the atmosphere which is at least theoretically repro…

We can already change 'our species'. It's changed more in the last 50,000 years than the 3 million before that, just because we started living in close societies.

And now we can do it deliberately. Never mind genetics, a large part of our makeup is now mental models, which can simply be taught. "Don't go outside without taking your anti-fungals and putting on sunscreen!"

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#108

Post by travisoneill1 »

macspoofing wrote: post #106
Justsignedup wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is important to understand differences: The future of humanity is not only on earth. Too much risk, too limited resources. HOWEVER the future of humanity in space is NOT "tomorrow we lift off a giant spaceship with everyone on it." If we survive a few hundred years we might see some amount of human civilization outside of earth, but for many hundreds of years after more practical space tech comes about mos…

>The future of humanity is not only on earth. Where are you going to go? Outside of Earth, there is no place for us in the entire Solar System. Sure we may build some research stations here and there, just as we did in inhospitable places on Earth (like Antarctica), but there's no long-term option anywhere. Interstellar travel is science fiction, but even if it wasn't, there is no place for us to go as well.

You make the place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Neill_cylinder

Obviously this is far beyond our current level of technology, though.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#109

Post by phizy »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #97
keiferski wrote: post #92

I don't know, I can't help but feel like nearly all of our solutions to contemporary problems involve space travel, specifically self-contained space travel (i.e., when spaceships become within an order of magnitude as affordable as houses or automobiles.) The universe is essentially limitless from a human point of view, so to be perpetually stuck on Earth seems like a failure of perspective. - Oppressive government…

I like your way of thinking. But remember, even with sublight travel, to populate the entire galaxy would take only a few million years. Including say a thousand years to rebuild the capability in each new colony. It grows geometrically you see, and there's no beating that. So on a Galactic scale its certainly possible to overpopulate, and in the blink of a cosmic eye (a million years). In fact that's a powerful argu…

It's not a powerful argument for 'we must be alone', because it's an equally powerful argument for 'space colonization is nearly impossible.' You're saying things are "certainly possible" but you don't have a shred of evidence to support that belief. It's more likely that you're vastly underestimating the cost of maintaining a life-supporting ecosystem independent of the benefits of a billions of years of evolutionary adaptation.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#110

Post by JoeAltmaier »

macspoofing wrote: post #106
Justsignedup wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is important to understand differences: The future of humanity is not only on earth. Too much risk, too limited resources. HOWEVER the future of humanity in space is NOT "tomorrow we lift off a giant spaceship with everyone on it." If we survive a few hundred years we might see some amount of human civilization outside of earth, but for many hundreds of years after more practical space tech comes about mos…

>The future of humanity is not only on earth. Where are you going to go? Outside of Earth, there is no place for us in the entire Solar System. Sure we may build some research stations here and there, just as we did in inhospitable places on Earth (like Antarctica), but there's no long-term option anywhere. Interstellar travel is science fiction, but even if it wasn't, there is no place for us to go as well.

We can change Mars in large ways. Lots of stuff written about that. Heck, we could redirect an icy asteroid to collide, providing water, atmosphere and heat. On the order of decades from now.
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