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It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

techeffect.substack.com

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Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#21

Post by Causality1 »

Is he really whining about NASA's tiny budget?

they didn’t think a lot of Americans actually cared about colonizing space, which they do.

This is incredibly misleading. A high proportion of Americans say they care when you ask them. Most don't think about it between days they see news headlines. When's the last time you saw a president get elected based on space policy? When's the last time space policy was even a presidential debate question?

Not to mention that at the end of the day, we either get off this planet or we die with it when the sun becomes a red giant.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#22

Post by bryanlarsen »

wrkronmiller wrote: post #8

> The problem with this line of thinking — and the Trump administration’s ideological and monetary support for NASA exploring the solar system — is that it perpetuates the myth that, through technological developments, humans are destined to leave Earth and find a utopia elsewhere. I haven't heard anyone make this argument in earnest. What I have heard are arguments to the effect that we _must_ expand past the Earth…

> I haven't heard anyone make this argument in earnest. What I have heard are arguments to the effect that we _must_ expand past the Earth because it will inevitably become uninhabitable, probably due to human intervention.

The counter-argument is that even after a nuclear Armageddon or the zombie apocalypse, Earth will still be more habitable than Mars for humans. Also, Mars will be much more susceptible to events like war or asteroids than Earth is.

Musk's point is that even if losing all humans (or just civilization) on Earth is much less likely than losing all humans on Mars, losing humans from both is still less likely.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#23

Post by johnmorrison »

wrkronmiller wrote: post #8

> The problem with this line of thinking — and the Trump administration’s ideological and monetary support for NASA exploring the solar system — is that it perpetuates the myth that, through technological developments, humans are destined to leave Earth and find a utopia elsewhere. I haven't heard anyone make this argument in earnest. What I have heard are arguments to the effect that we _must_ expand past the Earth…

Completely agree.

The only people I've ever heard mention the space utopia argument are people who are pushing anti-space ideology.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#24

Post by MereInterest »

save_ferris wrote: post #12
GenerocUsername wrote: post #3

I've seen more anti-space rhetoric in the last few weeks than ever before in my life. What gives? Great advancements have cost. That doesn't make them not worth doing

It's not that great advancements have cost. The argument is that focusing on space exploration deflects from facing the realities of climate change on our planet. If people start to think that space exploration could yield a solution to an increasingly uninhabitable climate on Earth, it could create a scenario where we spend even more on space exploration and less on addressing Earth's climate.

I've posted this before, but I see terraforming other planets as a necessary step to learn how to take care of the Earth. Large-scale geoengineering will be necessary sooner or later on Earth. However, it almost certainly has failure modes that we don't know about, and won't know about until we can experiment with it. Testing the effects on Earth, with nearly 8 billion people, is wildly reckless. Testing the effects on Mars or Venus, though costlier to implement, has the advantage of not risking those 8 billion lives.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#25

Post by samvher »

arcticbull wrote: post #15
save_ferris wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that great advancements have cost. The argument is that focusing on space exploration deflects from facing the realities of climate change on our planet. If people start to think that space exploration could yield a solution to an increasingly uninhabitable climate on Earth, it could create a scenario where we spend even more on space exploration and less on addressing Earth's climate.

IMO there's 8 billion of us, we can do both.

Then let's do both, and not just space exploration.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#26

Post by dqpb »

save_ferris wrote: post #12
GenerocUsername wrote: post #3

I've seen more anti-space rhetoric in the last few weeks than ever before in my life. What gives? Great advancements have cost. That doesn't make them not worth doing

It's not that great advancements have cost. The argument is that focusing on space exploration deflects from facing the realities of climate change on our planet. If people start to think that space exploration could yield a solution to an increasingly uninhabitable climate on Earth, it could create a scenario where we spend even more on space exploration and less on addressing Earth's climate.

The opposite is true. Investing in space exploration improves our ability to face climate change on our planet.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#27

Post by Isamu »

wrkronmiller wrote: post #8

> The problem with this line of thinking — and the Trump administration’s ideological and monetary support for NASA exploring the solar system — is that it perpetuates the myth that, through technological developments, humans are destined to leave Earth and find a utopia elsewhere. I haven't heard anyone make this argument in earnest. What I have heard are arguments to the effect that we _must_ expand past the Earth…

Agreed, and really Trump is not interested in ideology, but rather the recent successes of SpaceX and the potential of others are inspiring to a lot of people and point the way to potential new space business sectors. He is just pro business.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#28

Post by jfengel »

wrkronmiller wrote: post #8

> The problem with this line of thinking — and the Trump administration’s ideological and monetary support for NASA exploring the solar system — is that it perpetuates the myth that, through technological developments, humans are destined to leave Earth and find a utopia elsewhere. I haven't heard anyone make this argument in earnest. What I have heard are arguments to the effect that we _must_ expand past the Earth…

Thing is, I can't imagine anything that will happen to earth that will render it less habitable than Mars. Not nuclear weapons, not rogue states, not even asteroids. We could "colonize" an uninhabitable Earth more easily than any other planet. The fact that we could colonize a different planet makes us different from past species in mass extinction events.

That's not to say we shouldn't do it (though I personally would really like to get a chance to study Mars in its pristine state for a few centuries before we literally crap all over it). "Advancement" is a fine reason to go to space.

But the extinction argument doesn't hold water to me, and that makes me suspicious. If it's just a matter of increasing the urgency from the people who really want to go, I get that. I'd just like to be honest about it.

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#29

Post by ovi256 »

This is a restatement of the "we shouldn't do anything in Space until we solve (all/most/the most important) problems on Earth" argument.

If our ancestors would have used this they'd never would have, say, colonized the Americas, or even left Africa. Because there's always something broken at home. Has there been a single moment in history that would have satisfied that argument ?

Re: It’s dangerous to think humans have a destiny outside Earth

#30

Post by save_ferris »

lkbm wrote: post #18
GenerocUsername wrote: post #3

I've seen more anti-space rhetoric in the last few weeks than ever before in my life. What gives? Great advancements have cost. That doesn't make them not worth doing

It's because of the recent RNC tweet[0] with a list of some of Trump's priorities for the next term, and the firs two listed were a permanent presence on the moon and sending a manned mission to Mars. It did not mention the pandemic. Most people who already considered these were a waste of resources probably didn't bother talking about it much. Now they are, because they have a clear rallying point to shout about. I'…

This is the nature of political strategy. The pandemic is a really hard thing for the current administration to spin, so they're probably better off talking about "hopes and dreams" types of things. They're trying as hard as possible to look good right now in order to get reelected.
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