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I Violated a Code of Conduct

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Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#751

Post by wrsh07 »

skohan wrote: post #406
tptacek wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, and me I thought most of them were just a way to assure newcomers that your project wasn't going to allow racist trolling on the mailing list. My take is that the problem with this code of conduct was that it was dumb. I want to recommend to you the degree to which it is easy and relaxing to just acknowledge that and move on, maybe with a note or two about what not to do in any code of conduct you write. It seems…

> racist trolling on the mailing list Is this a widespread problem in software-related communities? I'm genuinely asking, because if it is maybe I am just not aware of it, but for example in the open-source projects I have been involved with the conversations tend to be extremely focused on the subject matter, and I'm not even aware of the race or gender of the people I'm conversing with.

In the c++ community[1] someone did just publicly announce that they were tired of the hostility so... yes

https://thephd.github.io/the-community#

[1] if you think this is "just a c++ problem" you're going to be very disappointed

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#752

Post by showdeadplease »

tptacek wrote: post #231
barumi wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the piece itself seems pretty balanced and thoughtful The piece is not balanced of thoughtful. The piece is crafted to present the case in a way that's immune or resilient to typical and expectable attacks. It underlined the core failings of the concept behind a CoC, and it provides a concrete example of how people use CoCs as an oppression tool that's leveraged to manipulate and condition groups to follow the…

Well, that is a take. It feels like it must be exhausting to have that take, and I certainly don't share it, but I acknowledge that it is one.

> Well, that is a take. It feels like it must be exhausting to have that take, and I certainly don't share it, but I acknowledge that it is one.

That's the kind of comment to which dang would usually say something like:

"Your comment would be fine without the snark. Would you mind reading the guidelines before commenting again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html"

But, of course, Mr. Ptacek has 330,000 karma points. Every community has its elite. (Funny that this happens on a thread about rules and enforcement.)

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#753

Post by mindslight »

bccdee wrote: post #695
ALittleLight wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

"Why should rules exist? We should just operate on intuitive feelings of what is or isn't acceptable all the time." Why NOT formalize rules to some extent? Having a hidden set of implicit mores is far worse. In fact, you can easily read this post as a pro-COC argument. After all, the author is able to make a really strong case that he didn't really infringe on any part of the COC, and that the COC was poorly construc…

Formal rules only make sense when there is sizeable bureaucracy to execute them. Otherwise they just get used by privileged individuals for their own purposes, adding a veneer of legitimacy. And creating bureaucracy is just not compatible with software communities - developers want to focus on software, and continue to do software outside of work to get away from heavyweight management and HR. The rise of COCs have more to do with the corporate colonization of software communities than the desire for social justice.

If OP had just been informally ostracized for whatever they actually did that made them not liked, they likely wouldn't be writing this blog post. They might find a different community, they might learn the unwritten social rules, or they might never learn. But they wouldn't need to write a blog post attempting to exonerate themselves from the black mark of a "COC violation" and rationalizing how the system attacked them.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#754

Post by skinkestek »

scatters wrote: post #687
goatinaboat wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A very large group of people have stated many times that that is not the case. They do not feel safe But what does that even mean in the context of an open source project? How is anyone actually “unsafe” from someone who may be on another continent and have no idea where they live? The word “unsafe” doesn’t mean anything any more, it’s just used to silence debate. “I feel unsafe so you should merge my PR without doin…

Really, finding out where someone lives is not that hard, especially if they have a professional or social life. And you can do significant damage to someone's career without knowing where they live.

CoCs has made life scarier.

It wasn't until PyCon that I considered anyone could be for for a joke(?) told to a friend next to you, overheard by someone who was supposed to be a developer advocate!.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#755

Post by jawarner »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #747
jawarner wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that fits here.

It does. According to Wikipedia, No true Scotsman, or appeal to purity, is an informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.[1][2] Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or othe…

gwbas1c did not reject the idea that CoCs could be used as a weapon. They rejected that is their only use case.

barumi referenced OP article as an example of CoC as a weapon.

pindab0ter argues this not a fault in the CoC itself per se, but in how it was enforced.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#756

Post by goatinaboat »

gsujsgwuaja wrote: post #630
dane-pgp wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was surprised too that he didn't see the danger of "cancel culture" after his experience. The ominous idea of "facing consequences" sounds exactly like the implication of a Mafioso saying "Nice business you have there, it would be a shame if something were to happen to it." Another example is this classic joke about the Soviet Union: Q: What is the difference between the Constitutions of the US and USSR? Both of th…

An alternative version of this joke: What's the difference between the Soviet Union and the USA? In both countries you have freedom of speech, but in the USA you can use it more than once.

What's the difference between the Soviet Union and the USA? In both countries you have freedom of speech, but in the USA you can use it more than once

In America you can call the President an idiot. And in Soviet Russia, you can also call the American President an idiot.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#757

Post by wrsh07 »

jeltz wrote: post #699
skohan wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> racist trolling on the mailing list Is this a widespread problem in software-related communities? I'm genuinely asking, because if it is maybe I am just not aware of it, but for example in the open-source projects I have been involved with the conversations tend to be extremely focused on the subject matter, and I'm not even aware of the race or gender of the people I'm conversing with.

I don't think so. I have never seen it happen in my 10 years in open source.

If you've never seen racist trolling on GitHub, maybe it's because you're not looking rather than that it doesn't happen

The laziest of Google searches quickly found people being racist on GitHub (... to a GitHub employee! With their own, non anonymous accounts!): https://www.tinykat.cafe/on-all-that-fuckery

(This incident also made it to hn iirc, but maybe you didn't read it that day)

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#758

Post by free_rms »

klmadfejno wrote: post #670
free_rms wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's in charge of "unpleasant things"? Are these things that a vast majority of the anglosphere, including POC, women, etc, wouldn't take offense to? Maybe people are objecting to a tiny % of critical theorists trying to seize control of acceptable language with no mandate.

Society is complicated and messy. Social change is uncomfortable. And yet for all the complaining of any given generation, they'd probably disagree with the ethics of three generations prior.

The thing is, you're not exactly ending segregation here.

What I see is an ever-shifting goalpost of harmless aphorisms that are newly considered 'offensive' by a bunch of upper-class people. What does that do for George Floyd's family, exactly? Did it prevent Jacob Blake from being shot in the back a few months later?

If you want to embrace critical theory, you should include the critical theorists in the analysis -- what's their power incentive? What do they stand to gain? Let's not just assume they're saints but everyone else needs an inquisition.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#759

Post by pseudalopex »

everdrive wrote: post #713
pseudalopex wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like asking who speaks for feminism, Occupy, or the gilets jaunes. They're decentralized.

That's a fine point, but I was just told someone DIDN'T speak for them.

They don't. No single person or organization can speak for a decentralized movement.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#760

Post by skinkestek »

gwbas1c wrote: post #697
barumi wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, CoCs are meant to clearly state that bigotry is unacceptable. Oh really? This discussion is about someone that was persecuted and punished for violating a CoC. Do you see any bigotry involved in this story?

> They (CoC)s shouldn't be used to play power games. It's totally appropriate to call out situations where a CoC is used incorrectly.

Yep, you wrote that above. But it doesn't help.

Ordinary people still get in trouble because others enjoy being judge, jury and executioner.

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