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To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

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Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#51

Post by dredmorbius »

NalNezumi wrote: post #30

I'm too young to recall the past in rose tinted glasses, but recently I've started to be more skeptical by day if "objective journalism" or even "journalism", as the third check of balance of power that is usually taught in schools, was ever a thing. On another HN post about fast.ai CoC debacle someone pointed out that media before the 20th century was not much more different than twitter today; a lot of rumours, unc…

Studying media history and theory is useful, all the more so when you realise that a major component of the high (information) technology sector is really just the current leading edge of a long history of media and communications.[1] I've compiled a bibliography (and am still working through it myself):

https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/7k7l4m/media_a...

The technology both affects and interoperates with social and individual dynamics --- characteristics and limitations of understanding and processing information, distortions and manipulations.

The era of principled professional journalism began afteer Walter Lippmann published Public Opinion in 1922 and arguably peaked in the 1970s in the U.S. Its decline has been accelerating through the Internet era, notably following the 2007-8 Global Financial Crisis, and possibly facing its death knell with the Covid Depression.

Humans are story-generating systems. Some stories are simple entertainment, some tribe-building, some sense-making, some rationalisation, the last often including denial.

________________________________

Notes:

1. Other major divisions are control systems, business and financial systems, and scientific sensing and processing.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#52

Post by throwawaygh »

pelliphant wrote: post #49
dredmorbius wrote: post #40

Seems to me there's much discussion not related at all to the substance of the article. I was hoping for better than this. The recommendation: the big national news providers – ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NPR, PBS, AP, Reuters, The New York Times, The Washington Post – should have threat modelling teams, just as they all have pollsters. These teams would try to identify the most serious threats to a free and fair election an…

Same here... But what can you do when a large part of commenters are arguing against democracy?

Fwiw at the time this article was posted it was like 3am in the us. Comments on optical stories are always low-quality flame bait this time of day, either because they're from non-Americans because of the sort of people who tend to comment in the early morning in their own time zone. Give it a few more hours.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#53

Post by throwawaygh »

dropit_sphere wrote: post #3

It feels insanely presumptuous to hear this stuff. Democracy? Since when are we a democracy? Oh, because it's a popular term used in media and vernacular? So are Fruit Loops, who cares? Let me try an alternate framing: democracy is a brand, a feel-good term for political rhetoric. This is what democracy looks like: https://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-... What is actually (though unpopularly) v…

Election of representatives via an accurate count of cast ballots is the Law of the land. Undermining that would erode both the rule of law and societal trust. And without those two things, your bill of rights is just a scrap of paper and your court is just a set of 9 frail people with no army to back them.

Small-d democracy -- the orderly selection of representatives via a vote of the enfranchised citizens -- is absolutely the bedrock of the American political system and its best bulwark against political violence.

Tbh I thought the article's autocratic fear-mongering was overblown bullshit, but the top comment on this story lauds a pro-Trump commentary show and insists that ending democracy isn't really such a big deal after all. So, here we are, I guess.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#54

Post by throwawaygh »

tathougies wrote: post #21
postpawl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is “the Bill of Rights, high trust, and rule of law” doing any lifting? You have to vote for people to implement those things. Ideally you’d have a well educated populace and a functional media to make sure the best people get elected though... Is there a better system for making politicians accountable to citizens?

> You have to vote for people to implement those things. Not really. We didn't vote for Amy Coney Barrett, or anyone else on the supreme court, but ultimately, they -- and the myriad other judges -- are the ones who protect the populace, via rule of law, from a government of any political party interfering in the fundamental rights -- as outlined in the Constitution -- over which the government has no authority to le…

The Supreme Court and what army/purse? Brown v Board wouldn't have had teeth if Wallace was the president, for example.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#56

Post by whatever1 »

aww_dang wrote: post #35
whatever1 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trump has said he will concede if fair." Sorry for the bad language, but What The Hell does this mean in a well established democracy? Is this a statement that a leader of a well-governed state can put out for his own country? We are talking about the USA not a banana republic. And somehow this behavior has been normalized.

It means that regardless of the results on election night, there's a reasonable probability that lawyers and possibly the supreme court will become involved. >What does this mean in a well established democracy? As the established democratic institutions declined in Rome, the cesar was selected by the praetorian guard. Similarly in the US's we see intelligence agencies and Federal law enforcement agencies conspiring…

Even better, let’s ask Russia to send us a delegation to oversee our election and ensure the validity of the results.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#57

Post by Fjolsvith »

whatever1 wrote: post #7
dropit_sphere wrote: post #3

It feels insanely presumptuous to hear this stuff. Democracy? Since when are we a democracy? Oh, because it's a popular term used in media and vernacular? So are Fruit Loops, who cares? Let me try an alternate framing: democracy is a brand, a feel-good term for political rhetoric. This is what democracy looks like: https://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-... What is actually (though unpopularly) v…

"What is actually (though unpopularly) valuable in our society is not democracy, but the Bill of Rights, high trust, and rule of law" All of these mean nothing if the people in charge are not held accountable for their actions/policies. And people who stay in power for long periods of time, tend to not be huge fans of accountability when it comes to their practices.

47 years is pretty long.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#58

Post by Fjolsvith »

hintymad wrote: post #12
dropit_sphere wrote: post #3

It feels insanely presumptuous to hear this stuff. Democracy? Since when are we a democracy? Oh, because it's a popular term used in media and vernacular? So are Fruit Loops, who cares? Let me try an alternate framing: democracy is a brand, a feel-good term for political rhetoric. This is what democracy looks like: https://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-... What is actually (though unpopularly) v…

> Tucker Carlson just broke the record for most-watched month of any cable news show ever. If that offends you as a journalist, it's probably time for some introspection. I admire your optimism, but there won't be introspection. They will and already have labeled Carlson far-right, bigot, racist, sexist, liar, and you name it. His show broke the record because more than half of American population are basket of deplo…

> His show broke the record because more than half of American population are basket of deplorables, least educated, and white supremacists.

In another word, mainstream.

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#59

Post by DeonPenny »

pelliphant wrote: post #48
DeonPenny wrote: post #4

Or they could become journalist again, because if you look at the trust in this journalist lately they are at a alltime low and these arrogant articles are why.

Are you willing to pay them for that?

Nope and I guess this why they changed business tactics

Re: To protect democracy, journalists need to learn to think like hackers and spies

#60

Post by powerapple »

hintymad wrote: post #11

Journalists need to learn the basic ethics. Take sides when you analyze, don't take sides when you seek facts. Edit to write sharper articles, don't edit to take people's words out of context. Be creative to find truth, don't be creative to fit everything into your own narrative, and certainly don't fabricate history to win Pulitzer.

We have journalists. Then we have sponsored news outlets. We have websites sponsored by different groups. What about an average person? he is not equipped with money and technology to publish his opinion in a very meaningful and informative way. We can solve this problem. I am looking to have something like a WordPress for news, where we can use open source technology to curate news, do news analytics and publish. If you believe the majority of people are kind and trustworthy, and if they are able to express themselves to compete with sponsored outlets, we may be able to do it.
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