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I Violated a Code of Conduct

fast.ai

341–350 of 971 posts

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#341
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in new projects from now on I'll start running echo "Don't be a dickhead, or I'll block you from the repo until you stop." > CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md Not needlessly aggressive, gets the point across, short, covers everything someone could do wrong, provides consequences and a pathway to reconciliation.

It doesn't communicate what you consider to be dickhead behavior, so it invites fear, uncertainty and doubt both in whether my behavior is okay, and in what behavior of other participants I can expect to be "protected" from.

Writing down behaviour rulebooks that resemble law, complete with tribunals or HR employee handbooks is like adopting big company policies for your small 3 person startup. It's a bad idea because it slows you down and is unnecessary because your project isn't at a size yet where normal social management techniques break down due to scale. The vast majority of projects don't need a statement-of-the-obvious CoC until it gets to a scale past dunbar's number IMO.

I don't need to see a person's behavior rulebook if I'm going to play D&D at a meetup, or jam on some music together or whatever. The vast majority of casual stuff like that doesn't need it and shouldn't need it. Neither does joe's casual github project either.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Jeremy could just not present at conferences that have a CoC. I've stopped contributing to projects that enforce a CoC, these days I just write exploits for them.

Out of interest what do you do with exploits for projects you don’t want to contribute to? I assume you’re not reporting them or fixing them because that’s contributing. Do you sell them or something?

I'm reporting them.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm, and me I thought most of them were just a way to assure newcomers that your project wasn't going to allow racist trolling on the mailing list. My take is that the problem with this code of conduct was that it was dumb. I want to recommend to you the degree to which it is easy and relaxing to just acknowledge that and move on, maybe with a note or two about what not to do in any code of conduct you write. It seems…

Apropos of nothing related, I want to know: What, exactly, were you confident yet wrong about in regards to bay leaves?

Someone asked on Twitter what, if any, flavor bay leaves had. I repeated advice I'd heard: supermarket bay leaves are bad, so just add a lot of them. Then I acted on another piece of advice: if you want to know what bay leaves taste like, steep them in water and taste the water. I did. Bay leaves are disgusting. Nobody should add more of them to anything.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except these are "unless you are wearing what someone else doesn't find offensive". This requires a fashion sense that keeps 100% of people happy enough not to report you.

> Except these are "unless you are wearing what someone else doesn't find offensive". Interesting. I didn't see that example in the article -- could you cite such an example or are you just making something up?

I'm referring to your use of the dress code. Unlike the clearly written "No shoes, No Shirt - No Service" sign, the "sign" in this case is the relative offensiveness of ones behaviour.

You just have to be offensive to "any single person" to trigger the "no service" condition.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A vocal minority is enough to dox you, to bother your workplace, your school/college, to get you fired/expelled, and alltogether, to make you "too hot" to hire, especially by large tech companies, who have whole departments of "vocal minority" people dealing with tiny stuff like that. Cancel culture has to stop.

Can someone give me specifics on who's affected by "cancel culture"? It's a meaningless label to me. I mean, I think Bill Cosby has been cancelled. Colin Kaepernick was for kneeling. And the lady who called the police on the black man in central park. Some of those may be unjustified. Is this really the biggest problem in society?

USC professor under fire after using Chinese expression students allege sounds like English slur

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/10/us/usc-chinese-professor-raci...

SDG&E Worker Fired Over Alleged Racist Gesture Says He Was Cracking Knuckles

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove...

Professors mobbed, stripped of teaching positions and residential life functions after suggesting students should establish their own social norms rather than having them enforced by administration

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/the-per...

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#347
I've never seen a CoC used to help protect a community, only to protect certain already powerful members within a community and give them a tool with which to beat others.

Lately I've been actively avoiding giving my time to open source projects that have CoC's like the Contributor Covenant[1], mainly because - if my experience is anything to go by - they are a strong signal that the kind of people I wish to avoid will be involved. I want to contribute things that (hopefully) improve the world in objective ways, not be involved in the wrangling and petty politics of a fiefdom just so I can get something like a bug report considered.

If I had to choose one CoC to implement, it would be NCoc[2].

[1] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/0/code_of_con... [2] https://github.com/domgetter/NCoC

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#348
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rebuilt? Why? Do you read the code of conduct when you attend a conference? Personally, I haven't even read the code of conduct for my job, and certainly wouldn't read one if I was speaking at or attending a conference. The CoCs are completely unnecessary and, as shown in this example, arbitrarily enforced. In the blog post I read that their CoC prohibits threats and assaults. Consider how silly that is. If someone's…

> The CoCs are completely unnecessary Where do you think they come from? The issues that people have to deal with at conferences aren't new [1] - and when the offender is a friend of the organizer, or works on their team, having a predefined process is good. It also means that people can't say "I didn't know it wasn't ok to ____" or "XXX punishment is too harsh" - a common issue with poor actors. A CoC means you can…

I'm not sure I'd describe multiple committee meetings, emails, and phone calls as less work or less drama. If someone is causing a problem ask them to leave and/or ban them. Maybe you need some policy internally that says who handles complaints of this kind, but you don't need to tell all conference attendees they aren't allowed to threaten one another or assault each other.

As far as friends of the organizers, I assume that's not settled with CoCs either. I bet if Jeremy were good friends with the right people this wouldn't have happened at all. Maybe it's not solved either in the CoC-free case, but I don't think it's worse and I think it's a relatively rare thing anyway.

It's not just correct to say that "people can't say..." Of course they can. People don't read the codes of conduct and don't know that they say. Even if they did know, the language is bound to contain ambiguity. Jeremy, for example, didn't know he wasn't allowed to disagree with people.

Genuine question for you: do you read the code of conduct at conferences you go to?

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#349
Sadly, I have personally watched keen advocates of various Codes of Conduct be prime violators of their own codes, and either blind to it or thinking somehow the standard is very flexible.

Pointing this out to them has usually resulted in them shrugging it off, in the manner of "it's not meant to be taken that seriously, it's so we have something to point at when we have to discipline someone".

Well, I sympathise with having something with which to discipline someone. But I think it's a bit rich when people egregiously violate their own advocated CoC.

I don't mean extremely subtle examples. I mean easy, blatant ones.

Like the time some people advocated for a CoC that said it's important not to view sexual images in a room without other people's consent as they may not wish to be exposed to them. Who then on a later date did exactly that themselves, with explicit vagina images, on the assumption that "we" all knew each other so assumed it was fine.

Ok, so people make mistakes. I have a lot of respect for the person who pointed out that we should adopt a CoC and then hold ourselves to it. Fine.

But did pointing out the sexual images go down well? No, they carried on, assuming I was being prissy. Leaving me wondering, why did you advocate for the CoC then?

I've seen plenty of others. People advocating for CoCs that say you mustn't derail other people's conversations, that's fun to watch as they do exactly that.

What I found, mostly, from discussing CoCs with people is:

1. Some regard them as "we need something to point to in sufficiently egregious cases that we have to discipline someone".

2. Some regard them as "pointing people to this will tell them our expectations".

Trouble with 1 is two things. First, selective enforcement. If you're not serious about the CoC, only using it to point to when you decided someone has done something bad, that's like having laws where everyone breaks some law all the time, and what determines your fate is whether the police like you or don't. Some judgement calls are necessary, but blatant selective enforcement is a problem.

Second, a list can't cover everything bad, it's not possible. If your judges believe in rules too much, sticking to the list, they will fail to judge some bad behaviours that should be disciplined. So you must have a fallback to "we decided your behaviour is bad even though it's not on the list", and if that's available, you don't really need the list at all for reason 1.

Trouble with 2 is, that might work if the prime advocates follow it. But if they are as I've seen sometimes (and it sounds like the judges in the article were), prime advocates of a CoC may be the ones visibly breaking it in front of everyone else. That sorts the group into an "in group" who set the real standard for what is expected, visibly; and an "out group" who are new, believe the CoC, and are afraid to act according to the social standard being visibly set by the in group. That's not fair and it can be quite harsh on someone conscienscious, inducing some fear of putting a foot wrong against the CoC, yet knowing they have to to fit in to the in group social norm.

So do I believe in CoCs?

Reluctantly, yes, because of the asshole problem. From time to time there's an asshole, making someone's life miserable, or many lives miserable. In a group there's often some kind of duty for organisers to care for those present, at least against serious abuse. I've seen people have a really awful time in groups being abused, where some power to intervene and a bit of guidance and authority to back it up would have avoided lasting trauma. In that situation you really need the abused person to know that someone "has their back", socially speaking.

A well crafted and fairly applied CoC, applied through gradual escalation (ie. talking to the person first to remind them it's a problem and please stop, etc) can, sometimes, prevent a minor or accidental asshole problem from growing unchecked. The article suggests gradual escalation didn't happen, and the consequences of serving judgement in the way they did, over a low level infringement, seems to have caused unnecessary emotional harm.

I think it's important the CoC is something that in-group people or leaders of some kind are genuinely willing to follow themselves. Not lip service, but actually visibly adhering to its ideas. Perhaps not strictly to every letter, but enough that most people will generally agree the spirit is being followed and treated with respect.

And having the CoC written out does set a tone. What kind of tone depends on how it's written of course, and there are a number of ways to do that. Some quite positive and constructive, others will set up polarisation. Having a CoC makes some people feel safer, comforted, better looked after from the beginning. If nothing else, it signals that organisers are aware of the asshole problem. But a CoC also makes some people feel less safe, if they think they're at risk of being found in violation if they dare to relax and be socially normal, especially if there's an apparent contradiction between encouraged in-group behaviour and what the CoC says.

Re: I Violated a Code of Conduct

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I let them know.

I apologize, I misinterpreted the wording to understand it as a purely spiteful malicious act.

Its pretty common for people to assume that exploit writing is a negative thing. It does sound particularly nasty. No harm is done.

Finding and reporting security flaws means I don't have to worry about offending people because its purely code. There is no debate if an exploit works when its working right in front of you. Either it gets fixed or it doesn't.

I have below average interpersonal skills, I have been told that I offend people without trying, this was never my intent. This is a method where I can focus on the purely technical and not have to worry about the 'Conduct' side of the problem.

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