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If Not SPAs, What?

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Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#121

Post by MattGaiser »

cateye wrote: post #37

I've always felt this problem from the first time I touched Angular. It was just so much more complex and fragile without actually a lot of benefit unless you wanted to make a really interactive async application like Google Docs or Facebook Chat. When SPA's became the norm and even static web pages needed to be build with React, developing became more and more inefficient. I saw whole teams struggling to build simpl…

The problem that nobody knows whether something will become the next Google Docs. Transitioning to an SPA from something like jQuery is basically a complete rewrite.

To be willing to not use an SPA, you need to be willing to exclude certain options from day 1. Find me a product manager willing to do that.

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#122

Post by cutler »

cateye wrote: post #37

I've always felt this problem from the first time I touched Angular. It was just so much more complex and fragile without actually a lot of benefit unless you wanted to make a really interactive async application like Google Docs or Facebook Chat. When SPA's became the norm and even static web pages needed to be build with React, developing became more and more inefficient. I saw whole teams struggling to build simpl…

Kubernetes is the biggest joke. I remember working with a sysadmin who worked for The Guardian provisioning servers remotely as demand spiked. This is pre-AWS. He used Puppet and remarked that you would only ever need what he was using for managing massive fleets of servers. Then Kubernetes and Docker arrived, which were intended for even bigger deployments in data centres. Before you knew it, just as with SPA's, Kubernetes and Docker became the new requirements for web devs working on simple apps.

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#125

Post by _ps6d »

542458 wrote: post #87
recursivedoubts wrote: post #65

Well, we could go back to the original model for the web, using REST & HATEOAS without arguing or even really thinking about it, by building hypertext-based applications. Of course, the hypertext we have, HTML, wasn't completed, and it leaves a lot to be desired. I have tried to fix that with htmx: https://htmx.org

Hey, this is super cool. Thanks for building it! One quick question: How should I be handling server side errors with this? Like, normally I’d check the status code coming from the server and throw up an error modal if it’s an error - what’s the equivalent mechanism here?

I haven't looked into htmx much yet, but am using its predecessor intercooler-js, and this is my code for handling server responses and displaying an error message when it's needed: https://gitlab.com/tildes/tildes/-/blob/master/tildes/static...

I wouldn't consider it particularly elegant, but it's straightforward and has worked well. It uses the "complete.ic" event to trigger whenever an intercooler request finishes, and then uses the response status/code/text to display an appropriate message.

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#126

Post by wyattpeak »

ablekh wrote: post #102
jolux wrote: post #45

One entry in this space that doesn't get a lot of attention is ASP.NET Blazor [1]. Blazor gives you the option of writing views in C# that will actually compile to WebAssembly and run in the browser, or run on the server and send DOM updates over a SignalR connection, a lot like LiveView. [1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/blazor/

Blazor is certainly a very interesting and promising piece of technology. However, Blazor Server hosting mode is prone to latency issues and requires always-on connection to run an applications (so, no offline mode). On the other hand, the alternative Blazor WebAssembly mode requires clients to download a sizeable mix of .NET runtime and other system DLLs on the first use of the application (even a lightweight demo a…

Is offline mode widely used? I remember it being released to great excitement and then I never heard about it again. I assumed it died out when being offline became too much of an edge-case for your average user to be worth dealing with.

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#127

Post by cutler »

Nextgrid wrote: post #116
cateye wrote: post #37

I've always felt this problem from the first time I touched Angular. It was just so much more complex and fragile without actually a lot of benefit unless you wanted to make a really interactive async application like Google Docs or Facebook Chat. When SPA's became the norm and even static web pages needed to be build with React, developing became more and more inefficient. I saw whole teams struggling to build simpl…

> Everything needed to be SPA, micro services, distributed databases, Kubernetes etc. These components and layers needed to be glued together by trial and error. This is a major problem with our industry. Unfortunately, the people with the power to curb this trend have their paycheck depend on it continuing. As a company, you are incentivised to have a large tech team to appear credible and raise funding, so you hire…

This is the main reason I refuse to entertain going perm in the tech sector. The amount of superfluous infrastructure and unquestioned use of SPA's is just an overwhelming time sink. I would honestly rather work with some 2-bit company's legacy PHP than this mountain of crap.

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#128

Post by thejosh »

PopeDotNinja wrote: post #89
xiaomai wrote: post #8

I think Phoenix Live View is maybe the most compelling story around this ( https://github.com/phoenixframework/phoenix_live_view ). I'm moving a side-project from React/SPA to Phoenix live view and it's kind of amazing to get the dev ergonomics of a server-rendered page with the UX benefits of a SPA. This course is a pretty great intro: https://pragmaticstudio.com/phoenix-liveview

What is Live View not good at?

You wouldn't use it for an offline app, but that's not what it's being marketed towards.

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#129

Post by rajeev-k »

> SPA pattern has failed to simplify web development

The SPA pattern is fine, it is React Router and Redux that has overcomplicated things.

Here's an example of an app written using the MVC pattern that is way simpler than the React stack: https://github.com/Rajeev-K/eureka

It uses two very simple libs:

A 500-line router: https://github.com/Rajeev-K/mvc-router/

A 200-line templating library that uses JSX syntax: https://github.com/wisercoder/uibuilder/

Re: If Not SPAs, What?

#130

Post by d3nj4l »

Scarbutt wrote: post #109
bgdkbtv wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding auth and db, the ones I've spoken with that prefer JS way of doing things like to combine a bunch of existing offerings into one, eg Auth0 for Auth, Prisma for DB and so on. The more potential points of failure, the more attractive it seems to them. When saying that Laravel/RoR gives you all that by running one simple command , I get blank stares. Hard to believe, I know.

Rails doesn't give you auth* though.

I can imagine people thinking Devise is Rails' own auth, given how popular it is.
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