Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products • Hacker News Board

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#191

Post by munk-a » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #183

munk-a wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does that work once the idiots are in charge of the budget? Society collapses and we become a failed state - but states fail all the time, universal suffrage appears to minimize the number of states that need to fail. > Well it does. The confusion is about what you’re voting for. When it comes to voting for president, my vote as a Vermonter is objectively worth 2.63 times as much as my friend from Washington -…

> Society collapses and we become a failed state - but states fail all the time, universal suffrage appears to minimize the number of states that need to fail. Curious claim. Has there been any research that shows states are less likely to fail with universal suffrage? > When it comes to voting for president, my vote as a Vermonter is objectively worth 2.63 times as much as my friend from Washington See, that’s the c…

Regarding research - hrm, not seeing super much out there but societies have evolved (or devolved if you care) into democracies pretty reliably and democratization seems to be a general government trend.

I don't disagree on the point of voting - it's not technically a direct election of the president. But we're still voting to impact the presidential election and my vote counts more toward that decision than my friend in WA.

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#192

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:24 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #154

dancemethis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They totally still call you paranoid. Snowden unfortunately meant nothing to the general technology consumer mass. They're more than happy to defend tooth and nail their jails. See Discord or Zoom as prime current examples. It is ridiculous that he had to go through this just for people to shake their shoulders and keep on, except for the few that already were inclined to care.

It is a relatively common belief among non-technical people in my friend group that Facebook listens to everything you say within earshot of your phone and later displays ads to you based on what it hears. That belief still isn't enough to get those people to stop using Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp. It isn't that people don't think they are being spied on. It is that people don't really care that they are being…

He failed to change things because he was a spy, with the objective of sowing chaos.

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#193

Post by bayindirh » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

nickbauman wrote: post #105

bayindirh wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its more nuanced than that. Didn't read the book completely but read a long report. What I remember: - They got exact hardware details and topology of the centrifuges somehow. - They've stolen Realtek's driver signing keys. - The virus looks like a simple worm which can infect other USB devices and doesn't unpack beyond a certain point if it can't find the SCADA equipment and the correct device ID & topology (It's li…

The hardware-software combination that was used to compromise the Iranian nuclear facilities was amazingly old and primitive, though. It truly was a weak link that I cannot fathom how this wasn't upgraded looong before. I mean, I guess it just didn't matter that much, after all, it's only a uranium enrichment facility, after all. What could possibly go wrong?

You're overestimating SCADA systems (and industrial control systems in particular) about their pace of evolution.

Some ideas about the reason they had this particular hardware and software combination:

- The SCADA hardware they got was not compatible with newer software which runs on more modern OSes.

- The SCADA software didn't have any newer version which runs on newer OSes (Windows 7 and further versions are more restrictive in terms of direct HW access).

- Since there are sanctions it was the only hardware and software combo they were able to legally obtain.

Industrial control is like automotive industry. Everything is improved in minuscule steps and by encapsulating everything in more modern carriers. A good example is MODBUS. They still carry the same data, the old way. Only thing is it's either encapsulated in USB or TCP/IP. Why? Because it works and allows perfect backward compatibility.

Since neither the hardware and the software has to run latest version of Doom (metaphorically), if the application is reliable, it's left as is. Even if it runs on DOS 6.22.

Fun fact: There's an auto repair shop in Poland which runs its main application on a C64 [0].

[0]: https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a23139/c...

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#194

Post by duncan_bayne » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:27 PM UTC

pulse7 wrote: post #5

"The tactics drew widespread attention starting in 2013, when Snowden leaked documents referencing these practices." So this is what Snowden has done: he "drew widespread attention to these tactics". Before Snowden they would call you "paranoid" if you would allow yourself to mention it. Today they can not call you paranoid anymore. And yes, it has hurt US industry reputation. Many don't trust Intel processors and Ci…

> Many don't trust Intel processors and Cisco routers anymore

In fairness, my lack of trust for Cisco products pre-dated the Snowden revelations, and were based on the products themselves.

Nothing I've seen since has caused me to change my opinion.

https://hub.packtpub.com/cisco-merely-blacklisted-a-curl-ins...

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#195

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #185

darkerside wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People now view going on the Internet as akin to going outside. Yes, other people can see you, and yes, you have limited expectations of privacy. No, it's not problematic that you have police keeping an eye on things. If you have a problem with that, and you never go outside without your "disguise" aka VPN, you are operating outside of social norms (and it's probably not helping anyway). This is not a valid judgement…

I hear this "the internet is like outside, don't expect privacy" argument a lot from americans, who i think are taught some 18th century definition of privacy by their media, as in "in your private rooms" and not a 21st century definition as in "about your private data". If you go to the city there are no agents of third party marketing agencies keeping notes of your movement and what items you look at in the stores…

You are 100% correct. It’s legal fetishism, which allows legislators to abrogate their responsibilities and keeps the moneyed stakeholders happy.

The notion that my papers inside of my rented apartment have dramatically more protection than my data inside of a rented server is absurd.

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#196

Post by indigochill » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

dancemethis wrote: post #30

pulse7 wrote: post #5

"The tactics drew widespread attention starting in 2013, when Snowden leaked documents referencing these practices." So this is what Snowden has done: he "drew widespread attention to these tactics". Before Snowden they would call you "paranoid" if you would allow yourself to mention it. Today they can not call you paranoid anymore. And yes, it has hurt US industry reputation. Many don't trust Intel processors and Ci…

They totally still call you paranoid. Snowden unfortunately meant nothing to the general technology consumer mass. They're more than happy to defend tooth and nail their jails. See Discord or Zoom as prime current examples. It is ridiculous that he had to go through this just for people to shake their shoulders and keep on, except for the few that already were inclined to care.

John Oliver did an episode on surveillance where he actually interviewed Snowden as well as "people on the street". Although most had no idea who Snowden was, there was (among the people shown in his interviews - could have been selectively chosen) a heightened awareness of the surveillance state.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVlyP4_11M

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#197

Post by jjdin14 » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:39 PM UTC

koboll wrote: post #178

worker767424 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> only 60% of Americans had some idea of who Snowden was It's things like this and people who believe the moon landing was faked that convinced me universal suffrage isn't a good thing, and we need some sort of poll test to make sure people are educated on issues before voting. I realize the US has a bad history with "literacy" tests, but it's clear that most people have no business voting.

>we need some sort of poll test to make sure people are educated on issues before voting. Okay, now start thinking about what happens when the political party you like least takes power and starts rewriting the poll test questions to advantage themselves. Then perhaps you'll see why this would be a catastrophically bad policy.

Are there not measures we could put in place to limit the possibility of this? E.g. Write a very basic and non-partisan test with clear answers and no room for subjectivity. Require x% of each party to approve the original test and any amendments in the future.

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#198

Post by stonepresto » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #184

stonepresto wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly fair, especially if the password is then set to some variation of "password"... Although for some devices if you can root it, you probably also know methods of securing it.

Rooting a device does not enable setting a password for it. You can host sshd without root, or host sshd but disable root login. Rooting and setting a password, or opening remote command channels for that matter, are separate things. Root allows you to shoot yourself in the foot more than you could otherwise, but you do need to pull the trigger. The default root methods just enable apps to request root, after which t…

"Device" has taken on a few different meanings in this thread. To clarify I was speaking generally and not specifically about mobile phones, which is certainly in error due to the context of the article.

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#199

Post by EthanHeilman » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:42 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #154

dancemethis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They totally still call you paranoid. Snowden unfortunately meant nothing to the general technology consumer mass. They're more than happy to defend tooth and nail their jails. See Discord or Zoom as prime current examples. It is ridiculous that he had to go through this just for people to shake their shoulders and keep on, except for the few that already were inclined to care.

It is a relatively common belief among non-technical people in my friend group that Facebook listens to everything you say within earshot of your phone and later displays ads to you based on what it hears. That belief still isn't enough to get those people to stop using Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp. It isn't that people don't think they are being spied on. It is that people don't really care that they are being…

>Snowden didn't fail to change things because people didn't believe him. He failed to change things because he didn't articulate a compelling enough reason for people to be fearful of what he revealed.

People feel that they are powerless to change this state of affairs and they are correct. Snowden told people it was happening, most people felt it was bad, but what they going to do? Stop using the internet? Elect someone that will shut down domestic surveillance? Throw away your phone? You might as well tell people to go live in a cave, eat lichen for food and lick the walls for water. People given no other option will accept what options remain. This even includes the option of facing certain death.

Re: Spy agency ducks questions about 'back doors' in tech products

#200

Post by Jon_Lowtek » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 11:43 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #195

Jon_Lowtek wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this "the internet is like outside, don't expect privacy" argument a lot from americans, who i think are taught some 18th century definition of privacy by their media, as in "in your private rooms" and not a 21st century definition as in "about your private data". If you go to the city there are no agents of third party marketing agencies keeping notes of your movement and what items you look at in the stores…

You are 100% correct. It’s legal fetishism, which allows legislators to abrogate their responsibilities and keeps the moneyed stakeholders happy. The notion that my papers inside of my rented apartment have dramatically more protection than my data inside of a rented server is absurd.

I should read up on that cloud act some time. Is it true your government can search any data you store in a rented netspace without telling you?

Edit: or more precise the "Stored Communications Act" - Cloud Act seems to deal with offshore servers in particular.