Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The self-driving car is a red herring

nautil.us

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 320 posts

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#251

Post by mhermher »

ckastner wrote: post #5

> Some experts now predict that we may never achieve the original dream of a reliable fully self-driving car. And even if we do, spreading the technology beyond the Arizona suburbs will require costly retrofits to add navigational hardware to existing roads. This is a non-starter in the post-pandemic age of austerity. Most state and local governments now struggle to merely maintain a much simpler, yet more fundamenta…

Sidenote, I love the idea of the "post-pandemic age of austerity", as if it contrasts with the "pre-pandemic age of austerity".

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#252

Post by ghaff »

mhermher wrote: post #232
simplyinfinity wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For me it's obvious the real issue are the edge cases - of course a self-driving car does fine in 99%+ of cases, but those small % of outlier cases are the ones where people potentially die. I suspect an entirely different approach is required to supplement/supplant the deep learning one and fully autonomous vehicles are still quite some way off. Why is that every time the safety of self driving cars is brought up,…

Is the manufacturer gonna take the liability for those deaths?

It seems obvious they'll have to provided the vehicles are being used and maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions.

Would you get in a vehicle if you could be charged with manslaughter for killing someone through absolutely no fault of your own?

Conversely, can imagine society collectively throwing up their hands in the event of a death caused by an autonomous vehicles and going "Them's the breaks. It's all for the good of society."

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#253

Post by kangnkodos »

This article completely ignores China.

In the US, if one pedestrian is killed by a self-driving car, the losses are unacceptable. This is true even if thousands of lives are saved.

In China, the opposite is true. If thousands of lives are saved, and one pedestrian dies, the self-driving car is a success.

China will be the first country to see widespread deployment of self-driving cars for this reason.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#254

Post by shadowgovt »

hutzlibu wrote: post #244
shadowgovt wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly. Americans seem real reluctant to hop on a bike, and I don't think it's just for safety reasons. Big chunks of the US are too cold to want to be outside that much, a lot of the year. But more dedicated bike infrastructure would be a huge help in general.

"Big chunks of the US are too cold to want to be outside that much, a lot of the year." There are surely limits to everything and not everyone is into extreme sports, but even in the winter I really like cycling. Much, much more, than the virus infested public transport. There is a saying, there is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing.

Clothing won't help when the roads are slushed up.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#255

Post by Grimm1 »

colinmhayes wrote: post #236
sailingparrot wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling this a "culture differences" is quite the understatement, unless you include politics, access to healthcare and other things under "culture". I do agree that there is definitly a cultural component to this too however.

I absolutely consider those things culture. The American culture of individualism is the cause of them.

I hard disagree with you. Individualism is not the root of our failing infrastructure.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#256

Post by Grimm1 »

screye wrote: post #239
Grimm1 wrote: post #153

I know people love public transport because of the supposed larger benefit to society but having ridden NYC public transport for over 7 years now I absolutely loath it. The experience is horrible almost every day. Between being crammed in the cars, the mentally unstable accosting you, the lack of cleanliness and the occasional assault I'm simply not willing to deal with that continuously. I put up with it because it…

This happens because the US cannot commit to proper public transport fully. In other places, there are either dedicated bus lanes or entirely separated trams which circumvent traffic all together. They also routinely upgrade their public transport, instead of NYC which incurs massive costs as it keeps 200 yr old infrastructure barely alive. It is also unreasonably cheap. $127 a month is lower than the cost of insuran…

I'm quite aware as someone living the situation but thanks I guess.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#257

Post by JoeAltmaier »

dragonwriter wrote: post #206
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a bus isn't that expensive. Running one every 15 minutes around a small town in a loop isn't that expensive. I don't think there's anything fundamental about density. Its about ridership and funding. Even LA could have functional mass transit if it had the will to fund 15-minute busses on a grid all day. A 25 cent tax on gas would do it. If even 2 people average rode each bus, it'd break even on traffic densi…

> 25 cent tax on gas would do it. If even 2 people average rode each bus, it'd break even on traffic density as well? Busses accelerate, decelerate, and turn differently than cars, so even if in terms of steady-state flow the two-riders = break-even argument is correct, it's not in city traffic. Moreover, I'd like to see your work on operating and capital costs, especially accounting for road wear for which the usual…

Well, I'm repeating something my old boss Eric Carlson at Unisys said, in his Master's thesis on City Planning.

And remember, the City busses are running only every 15 minutes. So whatever effect they have on localized traffic, it's very intermittent.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#258

Post by JoeAltmaier »

an_opabinia wrote: post #219
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a bus isn't that expensive. Running one every 15 minutes around a small town in a loop isn't that expensive. I don't think there's anything fundamental about density. Its about ridership and funding. Even LA could have functional mass transit if it had the will to fund 15-minute busses on a grid all day. A 25 cent tax on gas would do it. If even 2 people average rode each bus, it'd break even on traffic densi…

Listen you’re totally right. But even if car people lived somewhere with the best public transport in the world, they would drive. It’s not about technology or even reality. This conversation is a lot like trying to tell private health insurance users about single payer systems. Or private school users about federalized education. Or telling people with 4 children or 0 children how to live in a world where a thing li…

Many people are stretching the budget to have a car. With an adequate bus system that gets you anywhere in town taxi distance with a maximum single transfer of 15 minutes, there are perhaps many who's lives would be greatly improved by ditching the car. Or even just keeping the job if the car breaks down. Or using the car just for weekend jaunts.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#259

Post by Teever »

Grimm1 wrote: post #255
colinmhayes wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely consider those things culture. The American culture of individualism is the cause of them.

I hard disagree with you. Individualism is not the root of our failing infrastructure.

I think that the hyper-individualism that has been cultivated in certain segments of the American population for partisan political purposes is ultimately the greatest threat that American society faces.

It corrodes all aspects of society when a sizable population will place themselves above all else. The ironic part is that except for a thin slice of the wealthy it doesn't even benefit the people who espouse it the most.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#260

Post by Symmetry »

Kaze404 wrote: post #81

I have a feeling I'll be down voted to hell for this, but self driving cars always felt like going the complete wrong direction for me. Aside from small personal satisfaction to the few that will be able to afford them, how is revolving our infrastructure and culture around them any better than simply investing in public transportation by making it a more feasible option for people? I'm not in the US, and while the p…

They don't help as much as mass transit but they help in a couple of ways.

The most significant is that we spend a huge amount of inner city land on parking. We could build denser without worrying about that. A fair amount of inner city traffic is people cruising around looking for parking too. Also, outlying rail or subway stops should really have a lot of development around them but often in the US they're surrounded by parking lots for people commuting in to work. Reducing the need for parking really helps in this case.

Also, people currently have to buy a car big enough for their greatest needs. You don't need a large a car when commuting in to work as when you're taking a road trip with your family but if you're thinking of buying a car you need one to do both. So hopefully we see the average car on the road being much smaller than they are now.

Post reply on HN