Live data from Hacker News

The self-driving car is a red herring

nautil.us

131–140 of 320 posts

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#131
post #5

> Some experts now predict that we may never achieve the original dream of a reliable fully self-driving car. And even if we do, spreading the technology beyond the Arizona suburbs will require costly retrofits to add navigational hardware to existing roads. This is a non-starter in the post-pandemic age of austerity. Most state and local governments now struggle to merely maintain a much simpler, yet more fundamenta…

I don't see the point of guidance wires along a road. When you're travelling at speed down a road, you need to know that the surface is flat and clear with achievable turn radius out to your stopping distance.

Guide wires don't tell you whether the surface is flat. The surface could be damaged/potholed, and the guide wires would still be there.

The guide wires don't tell you whether the surface is clear. For that, you need to have vision, to tell you whether cars, pedestrians, obstructions, and toddlers about to run out into the road are there.

The guide wires don't tell you what the turn radius in the road is ahead - it only tells you where the road is right here. Although technically this could be achieved, it would make it much more complicated.

Ultimately, the car needs to build its own picture of where it is safe to drive that is reasonably resilient to adverse conditions and even malicious attack. Trusting road infrastructure for that I think is not resilient enough.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#132

So what if we eliminate some of the hard problems, like steering, traffic, pedestrians, and setup guided routes specifically for automated vehicles? All you would need to control is signaling and the throttle/brakes. You could even couple multiple vehicles together for more capacity! Seems like an idea ripe for implementation. /s

Hey, we could also make them more efficient by using steel for the wheels and rolling surface!

And we'll only have to bulldoze a few houses to do it!

Ten, twenty thousand at most, I'm sure. ;)

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#133
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental prerequisite for functional mass transit is a high population density. That's why it works in NYC and doesn't work in Los Angeles. But that means it's not just a matter of building mass transit. First you have to build taller buildings. And even then there are going to be places where it's just not happening. It doesn't matter how you change the zoning, nobody is going to build skyscrapers in Pine Blu…

LA has an order of magnitude more population than is required for functioning public transit. But you're right they don't have the density. The key is to realize the cars themselves killed density . Parking lots, parking spaces, and extra lanes all conspire to push humans and human spaces further apart. This then makes walking less feasible, cars more required, and more space required to accommodate those cars in a f…

> almost 20,000 people into a square mile

That's less than 1/3 the density of Manhattan and about on par with SF.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#134
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems an unrealistic bar especially as a hypothetical self-driving vehicle will be co-existing with human-driven cars even on main roads for the foreseeable future. Furthermore, airliners are flown by a pair of trained professionals, within an air traffic control system that minimizes their exposure to most serious threats, and are mostly (some bird strikes, sensor failures, etc. notwithstanding) flying under co…

Something here is unrealistic, that's the point. I'm not so sure it's the reliability threshold for self-driving cars though. I'm more amazed at our continuing acceptance of the risks in driving. Having two pilots, air traffic control, maintenance standards, etc, are all regulation driven. Why do we have all those regulations if we're willing to accept 1000x worse in cars with much more lax regulation? > OTOH, I doub…

>Why do we have all those regulations if we're willing to accept 1000x worse in cars with much more lax regulation?

I think it boils down to "because we can and still have a viable commercial airline industry." (And general aviation is much riskier than commercial airlines.) Whereas were we to vastly increase the training, maintenance schedules, monitoring of driver alertness, and requirements to have all the latest safety features, you're probably effectively eliminating driving for most people who can't just hire a professional driver/car.

For many things, we accept that we could make things safer if we wanted to. But were we to do so, we'd effectively be banning the activity or at least severely restricting it. (Which is probably one reason why we don't really have flying cars.)

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#135
post #81

I have a feeling I'll be down voted to hell for this, but self driving cars always felt like going the complete wrong direction for me. Aside from small personal satisfaction to the few that will be able to afford them, how is revolving our infrastructure and culture around them any better than simply investing in public transportation by making it a more feasible option for people? I'm not in the US, and while the p…

Public transit is obviously one facet here. But another is just flat out poor urban planning in the U.S. Walking and bicycling should be more viable forms of transportation. But there are only a small handful of cities (arguably just one) where that's currently feasible in the U.S. It's pretty ridiculous that we've spent the past 100 years designing our cities around the least efficient, least pleasant, most dangerou…

Only 5% of the U.S. population of takes transit to work, 2-3 percentage walk and .5% bike. And everyone else drives or works from home. I don't think it's missing the point at all.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#136

How outdated/out of touch was that line about Women managing children in a covid world? Just say "parents".

Unfortunately, the numbers do bear out that women are being extremely disproportionately hit by the need to manage children in a distributed manner during COVID.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/09/1071502

https://www.npr.org/2020/05/09/853073274/women-bear-the-brun...

In the US at least (and anecdotally), the driving factor appears to be that in a mixed-gender two-adult household, it is basically assumed that if someone has to step back from their job to watch kids, it's the woman---either because she makes less money than her male partner or because businesses are less flexible with granting men off-time for parenting than they are granting women such time. These factors aren't universally true, but I suspect they're on-average true enough to be driving the visible stats.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#137
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Elon says it's happening next year!

He's raised it to this year! >“It’s almost getting to a point where I can go from my house to work with no interventions, despite going through construction and widely varying situations,” he said. >“So this is why I’m very confident about full self-driving functionality being complete by the end of this year. It’s because I’m literally driving it.” Though reading that it sounds more like the car can drive from A to…

Weasel words about "functionality" instead of cars.

We've had self-driving train and airplane functionality for years. Meanwhile self-driving trains and planes are not closer.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#138
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh it will happen, temporary. Until some really big accident happens in a situation where even a drunk driver wouldn't have messed up that way. After that self driving will be limited to situations like while you are in a traffic jam or limited to 30km/h and having it's own track or similar.

That would be rather unfortunate. If a system generally performs significantly safer than humans, its use should be encouraged. Outlier incidents shouldn't matter.

The Problem is that it might not be significant safety outside of well suited situations.

This systems expect the user to shim in fastly if something goes wrong, which just can't work reliable given how human brains work.

Furthermore the situations which can make a self driving car crash are not the same which make a human driver crash.

Such crashes can be pretty arbitrary. Random things like advertisement on a bus has the potential to trick of the self driving car. Similar at least some systems are not very good at handling situations where the lanes are unexpected changed e.g. around a construction site. I had been in more than one situation where the lanes markings what completely messed up and only common sense was left to prevent a potential dangerous situation. This systems don't have common sense.

There already was at least on deadly incident where a Tesla crashed for no apparent reason (blaming the dead driver for not taking over fast enough which again isn't realistic at all, through legal maybe valid).

Tesla is supposedly the leader wrt. self driving cars, but people where easily able to trick that car to drive into the lane for the opposite direction and it has since a while one of the worst emergency brake assistants.

The problem boils down to self driving cars not being good at "unusual" situations but situations which are unusual for the self driving car are in practice pretty common given how much people drive cars and they are not necessary recognizable as such by humans.

Another problem is that traffic's in different countries have different rules and dynamics a self driving system working well for idk. the US might not at all be safe to use in idk. insert arbitrary EU country here even if trained for that country.

Humans can normally adapt to a degree in the fly, which makes them not have a crash, or less bad crashes in some situations. But the self driving car has no such common sense and might not even realize it's in a situation it's not trained for.

I see a lot of potential to make traffic more safe.(non stuff driving but assistant systems, self driving in traffic jams, slow self driving buses in car reduced inner cities, on highway self driving truck convoys, etc.).

But at least on the close future I'm not convinced "general purpose"/"everywhere any speed" self driving cars are more safe.

I mean we also shouldn't forget that a lot of deadly accidents happen because of negligence, so while self driving cars still require a driver hand over, they still all happen because the driver is as negligent (or might intentionally not use the self driving feature to get faster to work etc.).

Edit: Swipy keyboard mess ups.

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#139
post #13

Self-driving cars, computer speech recognition and the collapse of the federal reserve system. Things that are going to perpetually happen next year since the inception of Hacker News.

Is "Linux on the Desktop next year" still a thing?

No, it's the year of Linux on mobile already!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinephone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5

Re: The self-driving car is a red herring

#140
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's raised it to this year! >“It’s almost getting to a point where I can go from my house to work with no interventions, despite going through construction and widely varying situations,” he said. >“So this is why I’m very confident about full self-driving functionality being complete by the end of this year. It’s because I’m literally driving it.” Though reading that it sounds more like the car can drive from A to…

Weasel words about "functionality" instead of cars. We've had self-driving train and airplane functionality for years. Meanwhile self-driving trains and planes are not closer.

Well planes maybe. You've been able to get on a driverless train for nearly 40 years now eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Island_Line
Post reply on HN