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When will web browsers be complete?

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Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#151

Post by slightwinder »

kristopolous wrote: post #35

The HTML/web model is still fundamentally incomplete. Links are one way, things don't flow based on concept but based on this clunky chunk called a page. We still only have one functional semantic for cross linking the clunky chunks called the hyperlink. The only way we have to find things are to use companies that have managed to visit and index all the sites, not through some search and index interface but by proce…

> Links are one way

Is it even possible to change this? We did had (or still have?) backlinks in the blogging-world (trackback/pingback), but this is some active mechanism which simple does not scale well for physical reasons.

> things don't flow based on concept but based on this clunky chunk called a page

The base is a document, which describes the content and interface. "Page" is just the naming for some. Some others are called "App". What else is their?

> We still only have one functional semantic for cross linking the clunky chunks called the hyperlink.

We do have other formats than HTML. HTML had different approaches to include more stuff. Did not work for reasons. AT the end all dreams shatter on reality.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#152

Post by MacsHeadroom »

pessimizer wrote: post #130

They'll be complete when users have absolutely no way to interact with a web page other than what was explicitly intended by the company serving the web page, and when every possible interaction between the user and their computer is reported back to the the web page they're accessing. There will be three browsers: The "Safe Browser" which will be used by 85% of people, the "Smart Browser" which will be used by 5% of…

This is presented in a sort of hyperbolic way. But I do really think this is the future- and not as far off as people think. But not for nefarious reasons. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Average users value performance, cost, and battery life. The cost efficiency and capabilities of cloud compute will always outpace that of consumer mobile devices. So remote compute with zero user control is inevitable.

A stadia like experience for everything is what the overwhelming majority of consumers want- they just don't know it yet.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#153

Post by chrisseaton »

fergie wrote: post #143
chrismorgan wrote: post #102

> So what is the Web? Well we can agree the Web is a conglomerate of standards proposed by the W3C. No, I can’t agree with that because it hasn’t ever been true. For its first decade, it was the place where most relevant standards were proposed, but that still didn’t define the web; you had to look at what browsers did rather than what specs said, especially in such days as IE’s domination, because it varied quite su…

I have to confess that I didnt know anything about WHATWG until I read this comment- I always assumed that HTML was defined by W3C.

> I always assumed that HTML was defined by W3C

Yes I think that's the impression they try to create.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#154

Post by pjmlp »

hesarenu wrote: post #123
pjmlp wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers that keep pushing for Chrome are the ones to blame to start with. Happy Firefox user here since Netscape Navigator days.

On mobile blame goes to Apple for not allowing other engines. You could have used Firefox in iOS devices as well.

That is what saves the day of Safari actually being relevant at all, instead of Chrome overall.

I am an happy Firefox user, but don't fool myself, without Safari, Web === ChromeOS.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#155

Post by BlueTemplar »

zokier wrote: post #92

Personally I feel browsers got feature complete already somewhere around 2011, Firefox 4 was a great release and did pretty much everything I would want from browser. Last really important spec feature I feel was video element, which was added around that time. Got us rid of need for crappy plugins. Honestly I'm not sure what I'd miss if I had to go back to Fx4.

Yeah, IMHO browsers got worse in recent years, first with Opera 12 being killed off, then Firefox losing most of the power of its features/ plugins... (I still can't find anything nearly as good as Tab Groups !)

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#156

Post by fallat »

Timpy wrote: post #119
madrox wrote: post #30

When this essay started with "As someone who has used the Web since 2007" I immediately felt old, so thanks for that. As someone who has been using the Web since 1994 (and I feel like I was late to the game), I can assure the author their perspective has a lot of recency bias and this isn't something to worry about, in the general sense. Or worry about it, because it already happened a while ago. Take your pick. Loca…

That 2007 passage really brought me to a grinding hault. Toddlers are using the web these days from the moment they can swipe a screen. I have a hard time believing anybody on GitHub over the age of 20 only began using the internet in 2007.

I didn't regularly use the Internet until I was 13ish. I wanted to be fair in the timeframe so that's why I said that. I probably encountered the Internet many many times before then, but it was not for regular usage.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#157

Post by pgt »

chrismorgan wrote: post #102

> So what is the Web? Well we can agree the Web is a conglomerate of standards proposed by the W3C. No, I can’t agree with that because it hasn’t ever been true. For its first decade, it was the place where most relevant standards were proposed, but that still didn’t define the web; you had to look at what browsers did rather than what specs said, especially in such days as IE’s domination, because it varied quite su…

Standards are just out-of-date documentation.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#158

Post by pjc50 »

pessimizer wrote: post #130

They'll be complete when users have absolutely no way to interact with a web page other than what was explicitly intended by the company serving the web page, and when every possible interaction between the user and their computer is reported back to the the web page they're accessing. There will be three browsers: The "Safe Browser" which will be used by 85% of people, the "Smart Browser" which will be used by 5% of…

I'm more or less resigned to this being a continuous struggle with ongoing turnover of tech. The '00s solution for preventing people from interacting with your web page in unapproved ways was to do it all in Flash; that eventually died.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#159

Post by drdec »

nikitaga wrote: post #22

Chrome OS being open source is not a threat to Google for several reasons: The usefulness of the browser is that it's a cross-platform platform. You can run the same web apps on Windows, Mac, Linux, even mobile devices. Turning the browser itself into an OS-level platform will just create another platform that will need to compete with all existing platforms while having nothing unique to offer – after all, the same…

> Chrome OS being open source is not a threat to Google

Agreed. I always though that Chrome and ChromeOS were created so that Google could ensure that a platform always existed for their real products (which are offered over the web).

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#160

Post by BlueTemplar »

One aspect is how IPv4's quirks (and Google's domination plans) have pushed the Internet to push more and more things over HTTP(S). IPv6 will hopefully change that, and native programs will get another reprieve from WebApps.

(I also have to point out that WebApps still mostly suck - and are they even used yet on mobile/wearables/VR ?)

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