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When will web browsers be complete?

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Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#141
post #86
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of stuff were "microservices" before the name was coined. SOA (as in service-oriented-architecture) was definitely a thing. I worked for a company whose software was/is based on CORBA and let me tell you, that thing really smells like microservices-before-it-was-cool. You had a naming service, and each component would connect to the naming service on startup and resolve the endpoint for the components it needed…

Interestingly enough, the "N" in "GNOME" was due to the fact that it was initially based on CORBA, and used a C-language ORB called orbit (IIRC). If someone older than me would like to chime in and add some details, that would be lovely.

KDE and GNOME agreed in the early days that both desktops would be based on COBRA and use standard object names so the two would be compatible.

After fighting COBRA for a while KDE said this is too complex/slow and wrote DCOM (I might remember this name wrong) which gave them the parts they wanted without the overhead. GNOME stuck with COBRA longer, but I get the sense that they half agreed and were just hoping they could find a solution without abandoning COBRA (GNOME also had more corporate backers even in those days so there was probably non-programmer architects demanding they make it work). Evenually both agreed that they needed something more lightweight to solve the desktop needs and DBus came along.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#142
post #30

When this essay started with "As someone who has used the Web since 2007" I immediately felt old, so thanks for that. As someone who has been using the Web since 1994 (and I feel like I was late to the game), I can assure the author their perspective has a lot of recency bias and this isn't something to worry about, in the general sense. Or worry about it, because it already happened a while ago. Take your pick. Loca…

> This essay could've been written in 2002...about Internet Explorer. I've been reading a whitepaper from ~1997 on Microsoft's Distributed COM (DCOM) last night, and as I was reading it, I couldn't stop thinking: this is microservices. And it was really more than that - at least on the surface, this was microservices + orchestration + autoscaling + serverless, as well as, via Internet Explorer, component-based UIs wi…

I felt the same with components.

I was using encapsulated components with internal state and defined interfaces more than two decades ago and it was old technology even then.

The web is a funny place, they grab something and claim it's revolutionary but often forget to mention where it came from.

It's not a bad thing but I have often joked if you want to see what is considered state of the art in Year X go see what the academics where doing in (X-20) years.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#143

> So what is the Web? Well we can agree the Web is a conglomerate of standards proposed by the W3C. No, I can’t agree with that because it hasn’t ever been true. For its first decade, it was the place where most relevant standards were proposed, but that still didn’t define the web; you had to look at what browsers did rather than what specs said, especially in such days as IE’s domination, because it varied quite su…

I have to confess that I didnt know anything about WHATWG until I read this comment- I always assumed that HTML was defined by W3C.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#144
post #57
post #30

When this essay started with "As someone who has used the Web since 2007" I immediately felt old, so thanks for that. As someone who has been using the Web since 1994 (and I feel like I was late to the game), I can assure the author their perspective has a lot of recency bias and this isn't something to worry about, in the general sense. Or worry about it, because it already happened a while ago. Take your pick. Loca…

You literally couldn't have used the web much earlier than 1994 unless you were running a NeXT machine. I know because I've been on the net since 1988 and 1994 was when I first started browsing the web. If you were on Windows it was tricky then as you had to download and configure your own tcp/ip stack. That was possible due to the ingenuity of Peter Tattam who sold software that let you do that. I met him back then…

You could use the web before that, but with text based browsers which frankly weren't very inspiring nor popular. Most people preferred gopher etc - there was a brilliant mac gopher client.

What transformed the web was the launch of the Mosaic along with NCSA HTTPd - mostly in the backend of 1993 - it took off like wild fire - it's hard to remember dates, but I definitely remember the launch of Netscape Browser - which according to wikipedia was late 1994 - and at that point the web was already pretty popular.

Not just the web, but a large percentage of people had their own websites - it was ridiculously easy to do - just put an index.html in your ~/public_html folder.

Obviously this was all the in rarefied atmosphere of academia - and the computers were Unix work stations and most users were at University and largely PhD students at that.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#145
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interestingly enough, the "N" in "GNOME" was due to the fact that it was initially based on CORBA, and used a C-language ORB called orbit (IIRC). If someone older than me would like to chime in and add some details, that would be lovely.

KDE and GNOME agreed in the early days that both desktops would be based on COBRA and use standard object names so the two would be compatible. After fighting COBRA for a while KDE said this is too complex/slow and wrote DCOM (I might remember this name wrong) which gave them the parts they wanted without the overhead. GNOME stuck with COBRA longer, but I get the sense that they half agreed and were just hoping they…

CORBA, not COBRA :)

Also, iirc, KDE's thing was named DCOP

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#146
post #119
post #30

When this essay started with "As someone who has used the Web since 2007" I immediately felt old, so thanks for that. As someone who has been using the Web since 1994 (and I feel like I was late to the game), I can assure the author their perspective has a lot of recency bias and this isn't something to worry about, in the general sense. Or worry about it, because it already happened a while ago. Take your pick. Loca…

That 2007 passage really brought me to a grinding hault. Toddlers are using the web these days from the moment they can swipe a screen. I have a hard time believing anybody on GitHub over the age of 20 only began using the internet in 2007.

The technology to let toddlers use the web didn't really exist until rather recently.

In 2003, we got broadband internet at our house. Before then, when we only had dial-up, only a single computer in the house could use the internet. Broadband internet brought with it external modems you could connect to via wifi rather than sitting inside your computer [1], and this meant you could use other devices than the primary family computer to browse the internet, even assuming you had more computers in your household than just the one.

The iPhone came out in 2007, and is generally credited with ushering in the smartphone revolution. The iPad came out in 2010, making a somewhat larger form factor to enable the touchscreen interaction with the computer. From observation of my 3-year-old nephew, his ability to meaningfully use the computer via keyboard and mouse is quite limited. And I'm not sure he's all that capable with the touchscreen; he still hasn't understood that the reason he can't see me is that my phone doesn't have a camera and tries pushing stuff on the phone to make the camera turn on, inevitably resulting in him pushing the "end call" button.

I can totally buy a 10-year-old in 2007 who had never used the internet, especially if they came from a poorer household that didn't have the ability to keep up with technology and lived in a school district that didn't have the ability to give all their kids laptops.

[1] This does also show my age, as I never experienced the age of external modems connected via serial cables.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#148
Why plural? Probably "the web browser" is more correct term these days, no?

The idea of "browser as OS" or "OS as browser" is not that new. That move started by "active desktop" concept on Windows 95 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Desktop).

And speaking about browser... It's main goal is to serve following tasks:

1. To provide safe browsing experience.

2. To present content to the user.

Note that the order of these two tasks matters.

Initial active desktop effort has died because order of these two tasks was wrong at their first attempt.

From that point of view, "browser as OS" just increases attack surface. And so more and more isolation layers will be added into browsers making them less effective and performant than alternatives.

Consider WebAssembly for example. That was desperate move to provide an option to run some computation-heavy code inside browsers with at least comparable speed of native code. But it always be slower than native solutions. Java vs native code, we've been there, seen that.

To be short: native OS and solutions will always be more performant than the one emulated in the browser. Just because of the order of tasks.

In this sense the browser will never be complete. It may become asymptotically close to the OS but will never reach that point. And note the price: on that way it will become asymptotically close to the size of OS.

Re: When will web browsers be complete?

#150
post #2

W3C does not publish all web standards, notably it doesn't publish the three biggest technologies used in web browsers: - HTML is worked on by WHATWG - CSS is worked on by CSSWG - JavaScript is worked on by TC39 And IE wasn't killed by features moving too fast, Microsoft made Edge browser and still does. Mozilla hasn't been killed by Google or competition, it's been kept alive in large part by Google (I think in some…

> And IE wasn't killed by features moving too fast, Microsoft made Edge browser and still does. No, they don't. Edge nowadays is just a Blink shell.

And there we have another loop. From IE Shell to Blink/Chrome Shell. Who knows which dominating engine we will have in another 20 years.
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