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John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

theguardian.com

81–90 of 152 posts

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#81
post #6
post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

I have never been overly afraid of death but after deep diving into meditation, math and philosophy, i have come to the conclusion that a form of "idealism" or consciousness-first is much more likely than a materialist universe. This makes a lot of "scientism"(not scientists) people very angry , but personally my best guess is that "spacetime" will be seen as an evolutionary adaptation, or much more of a morphable cultural construct that is no more real than any other human narrative received through narrow sensegates and molded by fitness filters.

This is not an escapism from death, because that prospect can be as absurd or as frightening as death itself. But i am personally leaning more to the side of "the seer keeps seeing" at the moment.

The dennet'esque "lets just explain consciousness away", western perspective and ultra reductionism has always seemed extremely silly and banal to me - there simply can be no dualism, and the arrogance and narrow mindedness is a huge blindspot. They got everything upside down, - great and useful in one context but useless in another.

My own journey started with a deep dive into mediation, then Dzogzhen meditation, lucid dreaming exploration (Dream Yoga), the realization that you can be aware even in deep sleep "like in death", very absurd, then i became intrigued at Gödels theorems (via Godel, Escher, Bach ), and lately i have found scientists like Donald D. Hoffman and Bernardo Kastrup much more sane than many of their contemporaries.

That Hoffman associates (as in disagrees very much but have debated) with charlatans like Chopra is a bit annoying but looking back i think the western divide between "spirit" and science is fundamentally wrong, most, and i really mean all most all the the biggest thinkers we canonize today were into the weird and ungraspable, it has just been scrubbed from the reductionist retrospective. Also Hoffman really is doing all of the math if you go look at it and ignore the pop cultural shredding machine and even though his radical ideas might be gimmicks as Julian Janes or Hofstadter i think they point to a coming revolution where everything is going to get extremely "weird" in both math and physics.

Real insight exists in the liminal, i think.

Everything is more cyclical, warpable, field like, emergent, tantra-timelike, archetypal, perspective dependent, interpolated constantly and upside down in any paradigmatic sense.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#82
post #37

we will always opt to view and live through our imagined future, it's how we issue priority in the plans and contingencies of our lives, the best we can agree is to spend more time living in the moment and not otherwise in a loop we call regret where the decisions(past) is being redo in our minds to better imagined outcomes(future)

Right? It seems strange to call wisdom from a creature living in a simplified rule set. Throwing out imagined future necessarily throws out all of society and human knowledge.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#83
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Buddhism say you can never day and you'll re-emerge in somebody else's body? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)

The purpose of enlightenment is to eventually not re-emerge.

Exactly. They say the Buddha was a very pragmatic man and the whole purpose of his practice was to find a way out of Samsara, the cycle of existence and suffering.

I always wonder if he would have advocated for suicide if only he didn't believe in rebirth.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#84
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't Buddhism say you can never day and you'll re-emerge in somebody else's body? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebirth_(Buddhism)

The purpose of enlightenment is to eventually not re-emerge.

Doesn't that also imply that life is a sort of punishment? Once you get the lesson, you are no longer forced to play the game?

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#85
post #47
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly seem to have a good understanding of how provocative his philosophy is. He doesn't believe that history is leading anywhere, that there's moral progress. He believes that in the future slavery might return because history is cyclical and a result of a corrupt human nature that has not changed for thousands of years. That means genocides, racism, etc are here to stay and whatever progress we've made is a…

I believe the Long Peace and technological progress put us at the dawn of the Golden Age, and we're living it right now, setbacks like COVID notwithstanding. Steven Pinker puts forward a powerful argument to that effect in "Enlightenment Now", and it's hard to disagree when you look at the data. Literally none of that would be even possible under this philosophical framework.

Gray's view is not that there is no progress but that the idea of natural progression, unstoppable, inevitable progress is wrong and dangerous.

In the article it gives the example (a minor setback, I'm sure) of the return of torture in western democracies.

Data: In terms of lives ruined via proxy wars you can make the data show that more people are in misery now compared to less actual deaths. But we can discard this (personally I think its a weak argument and is a distraction). The main point is not "are we better than we were 50 years ago?" but rather "will we continue this short term trend and reach star trek society?".

The warning from Gray is that if you believe that the world is going automatically on the right path then you don't need to fight for it. You dont see the return of torture as something to be fought against, but just a minor setback. You dont see the rise of proxy wars as something to be criticised, its just a setback to progress. The rise of fascism in Eastern europe and the removal of rights is just a setback in the inexorable rise of progress. We toppled Saddam after all. China will naturally move to democracy. Its neo liberal science fiction.

The warning is that any progress we make is not a natural law. "Progression" is created by and can be destroyed by humans. Indeed when you see history through this lens one often stops calling change "progress".

The warning by Gray is that "believe the Long Peace and technological progress put us at the dawn of the Golden Age" is dangerous hubris and is a belief that can destroy the very things that have been achieved.

Gray does not try to prove that no change has been made, he tries to point out that the good changes need to be continually fought for and defended.

Cats are humble.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#86
post #36

> Don't live in an imagined future. Congratulations, dear philosopher. "Living in imagined future" is called motivation. You just told people that they shouldn't have any motivation beyond primitive impulses (hunger, fear, lust) such as those found in a cat. I'm not sure this is good advice for humans, however.

Gray is not saying motivation is wrong...quite the opposite! Gray is saying that if you believe humanity is headed naturally in the right direction, that this is a dangerous imagination. And that humanity needs motivation to ensure that any progress we make is recognised as special and fragile. Its not automatic and permanent, humanity needs motivation, they can't just believe in an imagined future and sit back and let the imagined invisible powers of progress happen to them.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#88
post #70

I think this is a great interview and I will definitely pick up the book. I think the answer to "What can we learn from cats?" can be to live more like a cat. But to force disinterest in an effort to emulate a cat's apparent disinterest would be a mistake. To live more like a cat cannot mean to simply imitate the cat, that would be another ideology. Instead, it must mean that we have to follow our human nature, just…

I think the central idea is that we need to be humble (like cats) and that hubris is dangerous.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#89
post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

In buddhism there is the four noble truths, a teaching about living life and facing death. In short, what many people afraid in death (or in life generally) is the fear of losing, either losing their possession, losing their loved ones or how those loved ones will feel when losing you, losing your ability to do your job, etc. In the teaching, if someone is able to overcome that fear (suffering / dissatisfaction), he…

Do not go gentle into that good night.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#90
post #72

I'm totally open to Gray's arguments. Wide open. But I do find a some of his writing quite mediocre. I'm surprised by how highly he is regarded. I read Soul of The Marionette recently.and I thought it was a somewhat aimless and poorly written meander through other people's ideas. Had a bit of a Gell-Mann moment as well when he discussed Philip K Dick and I found his summation of Dick's ideas flat and lacking in insig…

I'm with you about Soul of the Marionette - aimless. But perhaps this article gives some hints as to his intention, to light a spark in our subconscious? Im not sure any lights flickered in my head reading that book though!

I think he got very famous with the Straw Dogs and Black Dawn books (I've not read those). Recently he seems to be a columnist mostly ranting about SJWs and brexit - effectively a small c conservative pundit, but sometimes these contain a gem of a paragraph especially when talking about history or literature.

I do like his ideas about the myth of progress and found it chimed with recent discussions about the hinge of history https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200923-the-hinge-of-his...

If the positive changes we have made are not inevitable and this moment in time is not the most important ever, how best should we act to make the best impact on the future?

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