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Lessons from California: The perils of extreme democracy

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31–34 of 34 posts

Re: Lessons from California: The perils of extreme democracy

#31
post #30

I'll preface this by saying I'm largely a supporter of the referendum process in my state of California, and I would be hesitant to give up the power it has given me. That's not to say I don't see some of the big problems caused by this system, though I'm not persuaded that the author has offered very practical or substantial solutions. "Initiatives should be far harder to introduce. They should be shorter and simple…

The problem is precisely that it's too difficult for grassroots volunteer groups to put measures on the ballot, while at the same time being too easy for well-funded private interests to get things on the ballot, which has resulted in the current distorted use of the initiative system. Most initiative signatures are not collected by volunteers, they're collected by paid signature gathering organizations. And that's t…

If laws are truly discriminatory, then they should be challenged in court.

I must agree with you that there is likely more harmful legislation coming out of this process than beneficial, but I think that is largely a result of a lack of honest communication, as well as a lack of follow-through on the part of participating citizens.

I believe my proposed solution of having citizens sign petitions for an overarching policy goal, and then having them choose from a list of implementations under that goal, would do much to limit some of the more egregious manipulation of those signing petitions. People could sign a policy goal petition, providing a mailing address and email address, and once sufficient signatures are collected to get on the ballot, signatories would be sent a packet of competing initiatives to select from. The variant with the most votes gets all the petition signatures and gets on the ballot. This would give participating voters an opportunity to review what they're signing up for, and perhaps become more informed of various alternative proposals which would address the same putative issue. This will ultimately force special interests to fight on a more level playing field with competing interests.

Re: Lessons from California: The perils of extreme democracy

#32
post #30

I'll preface this by saying I'm largely a supporter of the referendum process in my state of California, and I would be hesitant to give up the power it has given me. That's not to say I don't see some of the big problems caused by this system, though I'm not persuaded that the author has offered very practical or substantial solutions. "Initiatives should be far harder to introduce. They should be shorter and simple…

The problem is precisely that it's too difficult for grassroots volunteer groups to put measures on the ballot, while at the same time being too easy for well-funded private interests to get things on the ballot, which has resulted in the current distorted use of the initiative system. Most initiative signatures are not collected by volunteers, they're collected by paid signature gathering organizations. And that's t…

BTW, greenhouse gas emission limits and energy policy was the answer you were looking for. There was even a sound repudiation of an effort to subvert the initiative process in order to cancel out previous gains in this area, proving that the system can work as intended to help ensure the public good.

Re: Lessons from California: The perils of extreme democracy

#33
post #16
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a world where California were 4 or 5 separate states. Mendocino to Santa Cruz, including the Bay Area, as one; LA and Ventura as another; San Diego and the Inland Empire as a third; Central Valley, Shasta, etc. as the 4th. Probably would improve governance, as the Republican Party we deal with in the Bay Area would offer people like Tom Campbell instead of Prop 8 NOMers.

I've always thought that the problem with America is too many states, which allows effective one-party states to develop. In Australia there's only six states, and they're all large and demographically diverse enough to be (in the American terminology) purple. That means that there's a regular cycle of kicking the bums out and installing the other set of bums every few election cycles, keeping things relatively healt…

Australia has about 2/3 the population of California, 2/3 the economy of California, is far less diverse than California and yet six seems a healthy number of sub-divisions for Australia while California should be merged in with other states? That makes no sense at all.

Re: Lessons from California: The perils of extreme democracy

#34
post #17
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I believe your "top 5 highest taxing states" is inaccurate. In 2000, at least, California ranked 19th in combined state + local tax burden according to the U.S. Census Bureau, which is decidedly middle of the pack. Pretending like we're the most highly taxed state in the country is deceptive and gives the impression that good governance (well, bad in our case) comes for free. Note that though the ranking of 19th d…

> In 2000, at least, California ranked 19th in combined state + local tax burden according to the U.S. Census Bureau http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels_in_the_United_... says that CA is 11th on a per-capita basis. However, Alaska (which is number 1) gets almost all of its tax revenue from folks who buy oil, most of whom are in other states/countries. IIRC, Wyoming, #4, is similar. I don't recall whether CT…

In state level taxation. State and local taxation and spending, however, are highly coupled, and looking at state level taxation in isolation can be misleading. Especially in the case of California, where local property tax rates were made artificially low, and as a result state income tax and sales tax artificially high.
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