John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future' • Hacker News Board

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#61

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:36 AM UTC

tasty_freeze wrote: post #38

koboll wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

I love ice cream. But if I had to eat a billion gallons of it, it would lose its appeal. Life is like that too: if we had it in infinite supply, it wouldn't have much value. If I could extend my life by 50 years of good health I might take that offer. If I had to extend it by 500 years, I'm pretty sure I'd decline. If I had to extend it 5000 years I'd certainly say no. 5M years of existence would be torture. When peo…

> I love ice cream. But if I had to eat a billion gallons of it, it would lose its appeal.

How do you know? Besides, if you had to eat a billion gallons of it, but over a billion years, I'm pretty sure it would've not lost its appeal at all. It's not "too much" but "too frequent" that takes the joy away.

To counter your example: I watch more TV series than I probably should. What I've learned is that while there's no fun in rewatching the same show just after you finished your first run, rewatching after ~5 years feels almost as if you were watching it for the first time.

I think life is the same. Brains are physical objects with limited capacity for memories and experiences. A million years of life won't be a million years of memories. But it will be a million years' worth of refining your person.

> if we had it in infinite supply, it wouldn't have much value.

Maybe "economic value" under capitalism. But emotional value to the person living.

> I wonder if they have really thought through the consequences.

I know I did. I fail to see a problem with everyone extending their lives indefinitely, past the initial hurdle of rebuilding our economic system to not structurally depend on people dying on schedule, and actually getting space exploration started.

And remember, if you get bored living forever, you could always check out. Right now, we don't even have an option to live long enough to get bored.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#62

Post by octoberfranklin » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:51 AM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #30

theonemind wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All other disgusting factors aside, human meat must have some ridiculous concentration of all kinds of harmful things like mercury and all kinds of bizarre things.

YC 2021 - Soylent Human Hummus - Do vegans taste better than omnivores? - ArsTechnica

shutupandtakemymoney.gif

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#63

Post by cyberdrunk » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:06 AM UTC

koboll wrote: post #6

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

> We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Ekhm, citation needed?

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#64

Post by Kliment » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:22 AM UTC

bredren wrote: post #53

serf wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different take : the cat is trying to coerce you into an early feeding, because it recognizes that you as an entity have the power to make such things happen for it.

I think my cat can count to two. He only goes outside a leash, and we walk together 2-4 times a day. The harness has two plastic clips, and he will sit still until the second clip is secured. After that second sound, he will stand and walk to wait near the door.

Cats can count to much more than two. If there are treats on a shelf and our older cat knocks them down, she'll remember how many hit the floor (from the sound) and then not stop looking for them until she's found that many. I suspect being able to keep track of distinct objects is useful when hunting if multiple small prey animals disperse in order to confuse the predator.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#65

Post by Lio » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:24 AM UTC

koboll wrote: post #6

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #3

Live life for its own sake. The gift of life is life itself. What's the alternative? Twice in my life I've grasped the concept of death, and it made my heart race with an exhilarating feeling of suffocating claustrophobic for two reasons: 1. It's coming for me one day 2. Not just the lack of agency in the universe, but the lack of even the realisation of the lack of agency. All of this (wide sweeping hand gesture ack…

This is bitterly true but also profoundly, maddeningly, horrifically sad. Death is monstrous. We can do better. We have to do better. And it's tragic that we probably will but everyone alive today will probably miss that chance by a sliver. We happened to be born 99% of the way from the beginning of humankind to the end of death, but we just barely missed it.

Even if technology allows the extension of life, death is still inevitable for us all.

There is no future in which we will overcome death because we can’t overcome the second law of thermodynamics.

That’s a hell of a thing to know and so many people either ignore it or are crushed by it.

Whole religions are based around dealing with it.

My only advice is don’t live in a dream that technology will save us. Do everything now while you can. Pass on what you can while you can.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#66

Post by LASR » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:26 AM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #54

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Death is monstrous. The one thing that softens the blow for me is knowing how many other people have been through it. It's an absolutely illogical attempt at rationalisation, but, you know, Einstein died, Beethoven died, my childhood cat died. Everything that has once ever lived but is not living right at this moment in time, has died. Death just IS. My stupid quip is: "Well, they survived it, so I guess I will too…

Just a year ago, my cat stopped eating/drinking and just perched stoically on her favorite chair outside waiting for time to pass and do her in. She would purr if you pet her, but that's where she wanted to be. After a biopsy, I found out she had advanced tumors in her stomach and I soon put her down. Sometimes I think about how my cat accepted and stared down death.

Cats, I find, to be comfortable exactly where they are - wherever they might be.

I have two cats. I strongly believe the only reason why they sometimes freak out (eg: when hungry) is because they know that I am someone who is susceptible to freaking out. And they seem to know that freaking out will evoke a hurried response from me.

I have cameras at home, and I monitor them. They look absolutely calm and comfortable until the moment I step through the door.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#67

Post by LASR » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:28 AM UTC

sigstoat wrote: post #60

tasty_freeze wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love ice cream. But if I had to eat a billion gallons of it, it would lose its appeal. Life is like that too: if we had it in infinite supply, it wouldn't have much value. If I could extend my life by 50 years of good health I might take that offer. If I had to extend it by 500 years, I'm pretty sure I'd decline. If I had to extend it 5000 years I'd certainly say no. 5M years of existence would be torture. When peo…

> If I could extend my life by 50 years of good health I might take that offer. If I had to extend it by 500 years, I'm pretty sure I'd decline. If I had to extend it 5000 years I'd certainly say no. 5M years of existence would be torture. is this a thing you worry might happen? like, if life extension is developed, you're concerned it will come in the form of a 5 million year increment, take it or leave it, no possi…

5M years? Well it entirely depends on how you get to spend those years.

As technology advances, I am sure we would also solve the problem of not knowing how to spend 5M years and still go on.

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#68

Post by tomgp » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:33 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #33

michaelwm wrote: post #7

There are as many ways to live, as many meanings to life, as many philosophies of the nature of things as there are beings in the universe. There's really nothing much to learn, because there are endless things to learn. One of my favorite comments on Hacker News was posted a few days ago. To quote: "On and on you will go, making sense of the world, forming notions of order, and being surprised in ways large and smal…

Depends how detailed you want to get. All of us have a need to be social and creative, IMO, and Gray would say each sex has its own traits which do not necessarily hold all the time but can be instructive. I gathered this from his "Men are from Mars..." book.

You’re thinking of the other John Gray

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#69

Post by tomgp » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:39 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #47

llamaz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You certainly seem to have a good understanding of how provocative his philosophy is. He doesn't believe that history is leading anywhere, that there's moral progress. He believes that in the future slavery might return because history is cyclical and a result of a corrupt human nature that has not changed for thousands of years. That means genocides, racism, etc are here to stay and whatever progress we've made is a…

I believe the Long Peace and technological progress put us at the dawn of the Golden Age, and we're living it right now, setbacks like COVID notwithstanding. Steven Pinker puts forward a powerful argument to that effect in "Enlightenment Now", and it's hard to disagree when you look at the data. Literally none of that would be even possible under this philosophical framework.

Yeah John Gray and Steven Pinker exist at opposite ends of the spectrum on this one (eg https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/mar/13/john-gray-stev... ).

I think both perspectives are valuable

Re: John Gray: 'What can we learn from cats? Don't live in an imagined future'

#70

Post by xlm1717 » Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 7:48 AM UTC

I think this is a great interview and I will definitely pick up the book. I think the answer to "What can we learn from cats?" can be to live more like a cat. But to force disinterest in an effort to emulate a cat's apparent disinterest would be a mistake. To live more like a cat cannot mean to simply imitate the cat, that would be another ideology. Instead, it must mean that we have to follow our human nature, just as the cat follows its cat nature.

I agree with John Gray's distrust of all ideology because ultimately ideology is what gives us the illusion that we can ignore our human nature. A cat must follow its cat nature, it has no choice. We as humans have a choice to follow our human nature or to try to bend nature to our will. The problem is that nature will always bend back, efforts to bend it will always be futile. So the ideal solution is to abandon ideology and choose to follow our human nature, to be the humans we are meant to be.