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Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

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Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#131
post #20

I really appreciate this analysis and the straightforward top line number 134e6/mm^2. The usual "node" figure is utterly meaningless; an electrical engineer couldn't care less about "feature" size (whatever that means.) What is the count of discrete components in a given area? There are 40 billion 5nm (the supposed "node" of these chips) squares in a millimeter of area. That's two orders of magnitude more dense than…

The funny thing is is this isn't really Apple's achievement. It's TSMC's achievement. It's also Intel's failure in that they failed to get a similar process working on schedule.

Comments like these and the ensuing arguments are funny. Especially considering the supposed audience.

What makes you think coordinating something like this is an easy task for anyone? As if you could ever distil this down to the efforts of a single organisation.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#132

I think this is cool if they’re the future of the Mac, but aren’t these chips just wasted in the iPad? I say this as an iPad Pro (1st-gen) owner ... it’s already way more processing power than I can really use, because after trying for months to get a sensible workflow going (mostly based around Pythonista, Editorial and RealVNC) I’ve relegated it to a OneNote and Netflix machine. What’s the point other than the cool…

Apple's SoC works really great and impressive, but I don't know why I need such spec for Phone. Even A12 is still great for most workloads. Apple improves camera functionality by its performance but just camera? I wish they find useful uses other than cameras.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#133
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that follows Efficiency, performance and cost are strongly related to density. Price less so; that's a function of supply and demand.

> Efficiency, performance and cost are strongly related to density. Price less so; that's a function of supply and demand. They are related, of course, but the important stuff can be measured more directly by looking at how well programs work on a given computer. I think it's just a little odd to praise one cherry-picked, arbitrary metric for being less game-able than another cherry-picked, arbitrary metric. Especial…

It's a story from a site that focuses on fabrication technology and the semiconductor market place. The topic is device density. This is of interest, even if it doesn't interest you.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#134
As someone with an 8 year old MacBook Pro that isn’t all that much slower than my 2019 16”.... I am so glad Apple is still pushing the envelope.

Back in the old days we used to get a doubling of performance every year or two. Then Intel got into trouble and has been producing the same chips for what 4-5 years? Essentially just minor changes.

It’s not really Apple’s fault that the rest of the industry is lagging so badly on performance. My Nokia was fast enough, of course no one “needs” a faster phone. But it only appears so much faster because the rest of the industry has stagnated.

Had Intel kept their tick-tock cadence then these new "faster” phones would hardly be considered fast.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where I believe the author goes astray: "Despite TSMC claiming a 1.8x shrink for N5, Apple only achieves a 1.49x shrink." TSMC does NOT say they have a 1.8x shrink for N5, they say for LOGIC you can get that, but for SRAM and Analog the results are 1.35x and 1.2x. Had they summed that together for a "typical SOC", which they also discuss (and one presumes that Apple makes typical SOCs) then the "theoretical"…

Wait, when node sizes where based off of a gate that meant logic gate? I always thought it was the transistor gate width.

My experience with the marketing speak around process nodes.

1) In the way back times, (think Intel 8080A) the complexity of the chips was advertised in "logic gates". More gates = more impressive chip.

2) But logic gates weren't equivalent from one process to another, and so it switched from "logic gates" to "transistors." More transistors => more impressive chip. (this is when I left Intel for Sun Microsystems)

3) But not all transistors are created equal, and there were things (like copper metal layers) that made chips better even it it meant you couldn't fit as many transistors so "line size" was what was important. Smaller line size => more impressive chip.

4) But now people had redesigned transistors so that they could be packed more densely and the limiting factor was how much silicon you needed for the gate (NMOS/CMOS) and since that wasn't a whole transistor, it was just a "feature" of the transistor, "feature size" became the new marketing term. Feature size was measured in nanometers and so the smaller nanometers implied more features per unit area.

It has all evolved over time so that it is harder and harder for any sort of comparative analysis between processes seems to make any sense at all these days.

These days, much like the TSMC presentation that is excerpted in the original article, semiconductor fabs rely on comparative measures like "same stuff would be size on this process vs size on the previous process." All the really interesting parameters to me are things like how that effects leakage (thus idle power) and voltage thresholds (thus idle power and maximum frequencies).

I'd love it if there was some sort of SI unit you could demand which would give you a better comparison metric but I don't think we'll see that. Everybody wants to be "the best" and that is most easily achieved when you can dynamically define the metric for "best."

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#136

I found this to be a pretty confusing article. I get that they are analyzing the new node, which is great, but the editorializing seems a bit premature to me. I also don't think the author understood the TMSC presentation. TMSC clearly said that is used a "model" of a typical SOC of 60% logic, 30% SRAM, and 10% analog. Then they said that for each category of thing, you could expect 1.8x, 1.35x, and 1.2x of shrink. I…

Apple is also probably using more SRAM than the "typical SOC", for example the A13 has much more cache than say the Snapdragon 855. I don't know the relative die areas but that would let you make a decent estimate.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#137

As someone with an 8 year old MacBook Pro that isn’t all that much slower than my 2019 16”.... I am so glad Apple is still pushing the envelope. Back in the old days we used to get a doubling of performance every year or two. Then Intel got into trouble and has been producing the same chips for what 4-5 years? Essentially just minor changes. It’s not really Apple’s fault that the rest of the industry is lagging so ba…

Blaming Intel for the end to frequency scaling is overblown. The reality is that the entire field started to hit limitations imposed by physics on the current silicon trajectory. While transistors kept (and keep) getting smaller, it's diminishing returns squeezing clockspeed and single-core performance out of it. Instead, everything has been going into scaling horizontally with more cores and more cache.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#138

As someone with an 8 year old MacBook Pro that isn’t all that much slower than my 2019 16”.... I am so glad Apple is still pushing the envelope. Back in the old days we used to get a doubling of performance every year or two. Then Intel got into trouble and has been producing the same chips for what 4-5 years? Essentially just minor changes. It’s not really Apple’s fault that the rest of the industry is lagging so ba…

My 2013 high end 15" MBP gets pretty hot when I'm watching 1080p or higher videos. Chrome+YouTube is even worse, it even drops frames. Compiling Swift is even worse than that.

I have a work-provided 16" MBP that does all these things effortlessly.

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no speed of computer which cannot be overwhelmed by badly written code. I guess your point is that sloppy web developers / web companies make poorly performing code and shift the burden of handling it out to visitors’ machines, so those machines have to keep improving to not be left behind? That might be true, but is pretty depressing.

Conversely: There is no speed of computer which cannot be utilised to reduce developer effort. Faster computers enable easier programming strategies, which improve net productivity. People are expensive, so giving them better "power tools" improves efficiency. We don't complain that coal miners just need to shovel more efficiently. We give them enormous trucks and hydraulic mining shovels.

[deleted]

Re: Apple’s A14 Packs 134M Transistors/mm²

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just looking into optimising a large web application. I told the customer that using a caching layer such as a CDN would help paper over the worst of the inefficiencies in their application and the network stack. That was true! The download times halved. However, benchmarks with F12 developer tools showed that while downloads reduced from 200ms to 100ms, the overall load times were still seconds, of which about…

Sounds like the argument here is "buy an iPad pro so frontend developers don't need to learn optimization"...?

"What Andy giveth, Bill taketh away."
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