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Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

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Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#51

Post by andoriyu »

nl wrote: post #38
outworlder wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's clear users in general don't care about an app being pure Mac OS controls/SDKs/etc. They may not put it in those terms, but they do. They can tell when an app feels 'weird' or slow (be it actually slow or just higher latency). That depends a lot on the user base for the specific app in question. The more 'casual' the user base, the less it matters. Being native also allows you to get functionality for free tha…

VS.Code users aren't exactly casual users and in the main are happy enough to use it as their main coding interface many hours per day (and yes I understand that this is HN so now there will be a bunch of people saying "I'm not happy).

VSCode users never seen snappy and well-made IDE. Most probably think "source code highlighting" + "project drawer" = IDE.

Just going to leave this here https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#52

Post by fxtentacle »

By now, I'd treat Apple-exclusive app developers for Stockholm syndrome.

I used to build a Mac-only native app for real-time audio processing, which was great for battery life, snappy performance and had no latency. But the work that Apple pushed on me just to keep things running okay-ish across OS releases was too much to bear compared with the meager revenue of only serving 10% of the addressable market.

By now, my app is using a cross-platform C++ framework so that I can compile the same code for Windows, Linux and Mac. Windows and surprisingly Linux pay for development of new features, while Mac is more of a prestigious afterthought. Needless to say, I'm not using native Apple frameworks anymore and battery life on OS X has suffered. But finally, the same C++ code will compile nicely across OS X versions, the app is profitable, and I'm not stressed by every WWDC anymore.

And then when Epic showed me what I had feared all along - namely that Apple is happy to sacrifice their loyal developers in the name of profits - I was just glad that I had taken the jump off Apple-specific development tools early enough.

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#53

Post by sam_goody »

OT: But their 8bit graphics theme (which are really not 8-bit, I know...) is so much the wrong message for a product like Sketch that it was a net loss for me.

Graphics are important, and styles like that are great for games, but the message they give me is: "The fun doesn't come from the graphics"

Always be sure of the unconscious marketing

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#54

Post by codazoda »

I don't get it. Reading through their reasons to love native I kept thinking, "I don't use that feature".

Finder? A file browser exists in every OS and browsers support browsing file systems well. I have so many thousands of files at this point, using a file browser isn't an advantage to me.

Time Machine? I've never used it because my thousands of files have been stored in a cloud sync app for a decade and I don't think about backups anymore.

Keyboard shortcuts? Well, maybe I should do more of this, but I don't create many of my own. I prefer the command line, actually.

Drag toolbar items around? I'd rather learn their original locations so I don't have to customize everytime I install something.

I'll stop there. I actually enjoy some native apps but even those I typically wish they weren't native. What if I want to run them on my Chromebook for a bit? What if I decide I can't drop the money on a Mac anymore and go for Linux? What if I don't like how the ecosystem locks me in going forward? Today I love my Mac, but I'm not sure I'll still love it tomorrow. Web based and cross platform software gives me more choice.

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#55

Post by untog »

robertoandred wrote: post #29
untog wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People uses Macs because they want to use Macs and software that takes advantage of the reliability and consistency of that ecosystem ehhh. I think if you did some analytics of “apps Mac users use” an absolute ton would be “a web browser and very little else”. I can think of very few truly native Mac apps I depend upon and that keep me on the platform. What does keep me on Macs is that every now and then I need to…

Just because you use non-native apps doesn't mean you like them. I mean, does anyone actually like Slack?

So I like Slack, the chat platform? I don’t. Do I like Slack, the Mac app? Honestly it’s fine. My problem isn’t with the app, it’s the amount of attention I have to give it. Making it native wouldn’t improve that.

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#56

Post by cawlin »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #7
CognitiveLens wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably - Sketch is great software, well built, but the fact that in late 2020 they still have to write "And soon, the ability to collaborate in real-time" is the the best counter-argument to building native for me personally.

Ability to collaborate in real-time is not something exclusive to web apps.

Correct, but as a feature it is exclusive to "apps other than Sketch"

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#57

Post by qppo »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #31
yesimahuman wrote: post #13

I respect them for sticking to this, but I think it's a mistake. It's clear users in general don't care about an app being pure Mac OS controls/SDKs/etc. and their claims about it being a truly superior UX are unfounded (having used both regularly, Figma disproves that heavily). With this, Sketch isn't available on Windows nor the web (until very recently it seems?). I wouldn't die on that hill.

I agree with you, and I think this is a pretty good signal that Sketch is REALLY feeling the heat from Figma, because they aren't offering a better argument besides "we're native". The bandwagon has clearly jumped off Sketch and onto Figma, and not because it's "fashionable", but because Figma is plain awesome.

I don't know if they're feeling the heat since they seem like two different verticals. Sketch is a drawing app with support for some UI development workflows. Figma is workplace productivity software with support for some UI development workflows and drawing.

I love Sketch but it's closer to Illustrator or XD (at least, that's how I use it) than Figma. If they want to throw shade it should be at Adobe, since their interface is just better and app is faster/smaller/doesn't run six background daemons.

On a different note, I've heard multiple pitches where startups position themselves as "Figma for X" but never "Sketch for X." Figma is a platform that is building out into different markets, Sketch has much smaller applicability.

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#58

Post by francisl »

outworlder wrote: post #22
yesimahuman wrote: post #13

I respect them for sticking to this, but I think it's a mistake. It's clear users in general don't care about an app being pure Mac OS controls/SDKs/etc. and their claims about it being a truly superior UX are unfounded (having used both regularly, Figma disproves that heavily). With this, Sketch isn't available on Windows nor the web (until very recently it seems?). I wouldn't die on that hill.

> It's clear users in general don't care about an app being pure Mac OS controls/SDKs/etc. They may not put it in those terms, but they do. They can tell when an app feels 'weird' or slow (be it actually slow or just higher latency). That depends a lot on the user base for the specific app in question. The more 'casual' the user base, the less it matters. Being native also allows you to get functionality for free tha…

I'm not involved with figma in any way, just a user. But from what I understand, it is written in c++ and uses webassembly. Some ui parts are in standard TS+css. [1]

There is absolutely no reason not to be responsive, low on memory and as powerful as a native app.

[1] https://www.figma.com/blog/webassembly-cut-figmas-load-time-...

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#59

Post by newscracker »

codazoda wrote: post #54

I don't get it. Reading through their reasons to love native I kept thinking, "I don't use that feature". Finder? A file browser exists in every OS and browsers support browsing file systems well. I have so many thousands of files at this point, using a file browser isn't an advantage to me. Time Machine? I've never used it because my thousands of files have been stored in a cloud sync app for a decade and I don't th…

> Time Machine? I've never used it because my thousands of files have been stored in a cloud sync app for a decade and I don't think about backups anymore.

I’m basing the following purely on your words in this comment. Does your cloud sync app support syncing or syncing with backups, where file version history exists for a long duration and files are stored (even the locally deleted ones) till it runs out of space (and initiates cleanup at that point)? If yes, that may be ok (though still not comparable to a local backup that could be a lot faster depending on the need). If not, then it’s nowhere close to what Time Machine offers (or what a backup application like SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner with history support offers).

Re: Sketch: Proud to Build a Truly Native Mac App

#60

Post by newscracker »

fxtentacle wrote: post #52

By now, I'd treat Apple-exclusive app developers for Stockholm syndrome. I used to build a Mac-only native app for real-time audio processing, which was great for battery life, snappy performance and had no latency. But the work that Apple pushed on me just to keep things running okay-ish across OS releases was too much to bear compared with the meager revenue of only serving 10% of the addressable market. By now, my…

I was with you until you mentioned Epic. What Epic did was a violation of a contract in a way it knew would bring about a confrontation. The judge hearing the case agreed that it was purely self-inflicted pain by Epic.

To be clear, many App Store rules seem arbitrary and ill defined (and enforced), but Epic is not the one to support here for what it did.

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