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I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

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Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#671

Post by onli »

philliphaydon wrote: post #669
onli wrote: post #667

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No! Why would you assume crazy modifications like that? They write "naked", it's naked as in not using the heatsink the mainboard supplies. https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/X570-AORUS-MASTER-re... shows the cooler they are talking about. You will just have to accept that you've been wrong on this topic. Move on, it happens.

No. Lol. Cooling anything other than the controller is pointless. You don’t get throttling from nand. I have the gigabyte x570 elite. That nvme cover does nothing. And unless you’re benchmarking the nvme I highly doubt you’re going to heat up the controller enough to notice it. So yup. I agree. You’re wrong. Let’s move on.

Man, they are benchmarking the whole SSD. I actually sent you the graph. The SSDs go over 80C and then throttle. Not all of them, but enough of them to be a real problem. The NVMe covers actually work in reducing the temperature, that's also in the graph. You are wrong and you seem to have no knowledge about this topic at all, you really should not be so confident.

Read and learn! And then accept when an initial assumption turns out to be wrong.

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#672

Post by philliphaydon »

onli wrote: post #671
philliphaydon wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Lol. Cooling anything other than the controller is pointless. You don’t get throttling from nand. I have the gigabyte x570 elite. That nvme cover does nothing. And unless you’re benchmarking the nvme I highly doubt you’re going to heat up the controller enough to notice it. So yup. I agree. You’re wrong. Let’s move on.

Man, they are benchmarking the whole SSD. I actually sent you the graph. The SSDs go over 80C and then throttle. Not all of them, but enough of them to be a real problem. The NVMe covers actually work in reducing the temperature, that's also in the graph. You are wrong and you seem to have no knowledge about this topic at all, you really should not be so confident. Read and learn! And then accept when an initial assu…

It’s not an assumption. NAND does not throttle. The controller does. Unless you run the SSD constantly like in a benchmark you are unlikely to heat the controller up to make it throttle. The airflow of a case is enough to keep an nvme within limits that everyday usage is not going to be hindered in anyway shape or form. You don’t need a heat sink. Linking to a constant load benchmark doesn’t change that. You’re wrong.

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#673

Post by robotnikman »

Spooky23 wrote: post #242
nvarsj wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trend in laptops has been for longer battery life and less heat. Since there haven't been any major breakthroughs in battery technology or mobile processor power (at least from Intel), this means lower power for processors and generally lower performance in general. Almost all laptops are using ultra low voltage Intel chips. And even the ones that don't, except for high end gaming laptops, thermally throttle ALL…

Also, many laptops have non-replaceable batteries, and a significant percentage fail in 24-30 months.

Most laptops have replaceable batteries from my experience. Its just you have to grab a screwdriver and open them up first.

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#674

Post by blandflakes »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #666
blandflakes wrote: post #638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've considered this route myself - are you using KVM in Ubuntu to get passthrough or is there some other hypervisor in play?

im using libvirt, which uses qemu, which uses KVM. There's plenty of good guides if you search for something like "VFIO VM GPU passthrough". Here is a good one: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PCI_passthrough_via_OVM...

Awesome, thanks for the response!

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#675

Post by onli »

philliphaydon wrote: post #672
onli wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, they are benchmarking the whole SSD. I actually sent you the graph. The SSDs go over 80C and then throttle. Not all of them, but enough of them to be a real problem. The NVMe covers actually work in reducing the temperature, that's also in the graph. You are wrong and you seem to have no knowledge about this topic at all, you really should not be so confident. Read and learn! And then accept when an initial assu…

It’s not an assumption. NAND does not throttle. The controller does. Unless you run the SSD constantly like in a benchmark you are unlikely to heat the controller up to make it throttle. The airflow of a case is enough to keep an nvme within limits that everyday usage is not going to be hindered in anyway shape or form. You don’t need a heat sink. Linking to a constant load benchmark doesn’t change that. You’re wrong…

I do not understand how you can still think that after my explanation and after looking at the graph I sent you. One very last try - though I assume in the best case it's for potential other readers.

Go to https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/samsung-980-pro-ssd-test.... look at the graph. You see that a bunch of them go to the 80C line or hover above. All of them throttle (what you said does not happen). In that graph are shown, going above the limit:

1. FireCuda 520 1TB

2. Patriot Viper VP4100 1TB

3. Samsung 970 Evo 1TB

4. WD Black SN750 1TB (+ the same one with a cooler)

This is only a small part of the market of course, but it goes to show that the throttling is a real thing that happens with multiple models.

Then you had a moving goalpost there, that those SSDs do not throttle under realistic workloads. However, this is a sequential read that's only 5 minutes long. Hardly unrealistic. The hour long constant load benchmark is a different graph, however, constant load is also realistic if it's longer than 5 minutes.

If you activate the other chart modes you see the measured performance, which shows the drops linked to the too high temperature, and that they did the same thing for write performance.

You can counteract this with a lot of targeted airflow and/or a heatsink, the heatsink will at least help move the throttling to a later moment. Gamersnexus had a very impressive demonstration of this, one where they did get this wrong: They had an article about a MSI SSD heatsink where they claimed it did not help (so the SSD did throttle! Again something you said does never happen), where it then turned out that it did not work only because their applied temperature sensors (glued them to the heatsink), and IIRC they also missed the higher performance they got regardless. GN often gets it right, stuff like that happens, but it made this one memorable and highlighted the positive effect of these heatsink coolers.

I'm into this topic professionally for years now. I'm not wrong here. If you can't take my word for it, look at professional SSD reviews, they have covered this also for years now.

And sure: There are scenarios where this does not matter. Gaming. Browsing. But: In those workloads there is no significant difference to a SATA SSD anyway. These NVMe SSDs are only interesting if you have large (and thus: long) file transfers. This is what they have to get right (and some do, but not all of them).

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#676

Post by reanimus »

morganvachon wrote: post #566
easton wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can revoke the keys as a user, it’s just that the system has to trust the Microsoft CA out of the box. If you have purchased a device with Secure Boot capability (including a motherboard), it trusts Microsoft’s CA (since it would be extremely confusing for 99% of users if Windows wouldn’t boot without trusting a key). My Ryzen board trusted Microsoft out of the box, it has to if they want to pass Windows logo cer…

"...it’s just that the system has to trust the Microsoft CA out of the box" That's the entirety of my complaint. Thanks for the link! My board is not on it as I assumed.

You can remove Microsoft's certs from the trust store used by the board, though. You can choose to keep them to facilitate dual boot with Secure Boot on, but you can also choose to eject them from the trust store.

Sure, they're loaded by default, and you can argue that we can't prove the board isn't gonna trust them behind your back -- but that applies to older non-open hardware too.

My bigger annoyance is Intel Boot Guard. I want Intel to let us control the firmware more directly -- even if it requires some physical authorization/kills some DRM component in ME or something. But that's not happening anytime soon...

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#677

Post by philliphaydon »

onli wrote: post #675
philliphaydon wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not an assumption. NAND does not throttle. The controller does. Unless you run the SSD constantly like in a benchmark you are unlikely to heat the controller up to make it throttle. The airflow of a case is enough to keep an nvme within limits that everyday usage is not going to be hindered in anyway shape or form. You don’t need a heat sink. Linking to a constant load benchmark doesn’t change that. You’re wrong…

I do not understand how you can still think that after my explanation and after looking at the graph I sent you. One very last try - though I assume in the best case it's for potential other readers. Go to https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/samsung-980-pro-ssd-test... . look at the graph. You see that a bunch of them go to the 80C line or hover above. All of them throttle (what you said does not happen). In that gra…

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying. So I’ll just end it here. You’re wrong.

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#678

Post by machinesbuddy »

I'm also considering going back to a custom build desktop. Lots of flexibility, much more stronger, cheaper, upgradable, etc. I'm already connecting my laptop to a display and mechanical keyboard and mouse. Specially now we work from home and probably continue doing so which I enjoy a lot, I can just put the laptop aside for rare cases I need a mobile computer.

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#679

Post by onli »

philliphaydon wrote: post #677
onli wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not understand how you can still think that after my explanation and after looking at the graph I sent you. One very last try - though I assume in the best case it's for potential other readers. Go to https://www.computerbase.de/2020-09/samsung-980-pro-ssd-test... . look at the graph. You see that a bunch of them go to the 80C line or hover above. All of them throttle (what you said does not happen). In that gra…

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying. So I’ll just end it here. You’re wrong.

I'm not wrong, you are.

By the way, by repeating that I'm wrong and by starting with a straight "No", by always commenting without reasoning and politeness, you made sure that I will correct you - and that I'm not buying into your strange attempts to correct your statements to something that is correctish. They don't work anyway, these SSDs throttle.

You should change your tone around here.

Re: I am seriously considering going back to desktop computers

#680

Post by philliphaydon »

onli wrote: post #679
philliphaydon wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like you’re not even reading what I’m saying. So I’ll just end it here. You’re wrong.

I'm not wrong, you are. By the way, by repeating that I'm wrong and by starting with a straight "No", by always commenting without reasoning and politeness, you made sure that I will correct you - and that I'm not buying into your strange attempts to correct your statements to something that is correctish. They don't work anyway, these SSDs throttle. You should change your tone around here.

> They don't work anyway, these SSDs throttle.

But you don't know what causes the throttling. Its stupid to shove a heatsink on nand. It does not help. Not a single bit. Period. Under any normal daily usage, or even if you had a workstation, you're not going to be reading/writing so constantly frequently that you're ever going to cause the controller to heat up and cause throttling. If you experience any excessive heat. You have bigger issues in your case. Period. Your only proof of throttling is benchmarks running constant read/writes over a period of time. This is not real world usage and doesn't make it necessary to go out and start shoving heatsinks on every single nvme drive. If that was the case then all the laptops which have space between the nvme and the case, or motherboards which lack a 'heatshield' like the gigabyte board you linked to, would have throttling issues. Which they don't.

> You should change your tone around here.

So now you're threatening me?

-----

Anyway I'm done, not gonna sit here an argue anymore.

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