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‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#581

Post by monoideism »

standardUser wrote: post #575
nikitaga wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step 1: "if you don't support Black lives, unfriend me" (a sentiment you agree with, from your other comment in this thread) Step 2: "I almost never encounter people who think we should [...] not fight racism" You're free to exclude anyone you don't like from your friends – it's your life. But if you do this, maybe don't use the fact that your bubble doesn't have anyone who thinks differently from you as evidence of…

My so-called "bubble" includes dozens of uniquely massive metros that represent hundreds of millions of people. They drive, and historically have driven, most advances in art, culture, innovation and economic output. So it's not like I'm living in some remote backwater getting my news from obscure blogs. I'm up in the mix. As far as the current movement that aims to of change policy and perspectives to better protect…

> So it's not like I'm living in some remote backwater getting my news from obscure blogs. I'm up in the mix.

I have rarely met people more in a bubble than most folks in large US cities. You may have ethnic, linguistic, and religious diversity and (very limited) racial diversity, but the diversity of thought is near zero.

I know you all desperately want to participate in another 1960s civil rights movement, but that battle was won in the...1960s. The vast majority of the remaining issues are socioeconomic. Sorry.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#582

Post by thex10 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #387
Miner49er wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the thing. These diversity training people do use a different definition of racism then what you are thinking of. The diversity training definition of racism doesn't simply mean prejudiced, it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. By that definition, most white people are probably "racist". If you understand the context used when they call them…

Even by their definition, how am I supposed to "be better"? If it's not my choices that are creating this system of power that benefits people considered "white", then what, specifically, am I supposed to do?

You are supposed to “be better” by being an active part of a counterbalance force so that the white-benefiting system you happen to be a part of can become everyone-benefiting.

In terms of specific actions that can mean a lot of different things! The diversity session can probably suggest a few concrete steps towards this end (I am not a DEI professional etc)

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#583

Post by shadowgovt »

free_rms wrote: post #580
shadowgovt wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's a matter of definition, not behavior. Because the point of unconscious bias training is to help people see the ways in which they are racist even if they don't think of themselves as racist. In other words, there's no magically non-racist person out there. Everyone's a little bit racist.

It's a magical, shifting definition that means whatever the high priests need it to mean at the moment. Making people confess to being 'racist', at institutions where being Racist gets you fired, is a power-move. Those of us who can see that aren't objecting to the idea of unconscious bias, we're objecting to the power move.

If only there were some kind of, I dunno, training to help clarify and de-magic these words. ;)

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#584

Post by free_rms »

shadowgovt wrote: post #583
free_rms wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a magical, shifting definition that means whatever the high priests need it to mean at the moment. Making people confess to being 'racist', at institutions where being Racist gets you fired, is a power-move. Those of us who can see that aren't objecting to the idea of unconscious bias, we're objecting to the power move.

If only there were some kind of, I dunno, training to help clarify and de-magic these words. ;)

Do you believe racists should be shamed and fired?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#585

Post by shadowgovt »

danmaz74 wrote: post #579
shadowgovt wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only public humiliation if people perceive it to be public humiliation. what's humiliating about having the same problem that basically everyone does?

Most people (luckily) perceive racism to be a bad thing. Being forced to publicly confess to being something you should be ashamed of is the definition of humiliation.

If it's true and uncomfortable it's still true.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#586

Post by arrosenberg »

dnissley wrote: post #541
arrosenberg wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this conflates two separate, but equally damaging issues. (1) Social media sites have been optimized in the same way tobacco was, to take advantage of human chemistry to make it as addictive as possible; and (2) news companies are run for a profit, and the profits all started going to online advertisers, so the news companies had to follow. Thus things that are important on social media, become important to n…

Don't you think it's too soon to play the blame game? Both of these groups were just following incentives (both to make money and also just survive in a competitive landscape). On top of that there's also two other groups that further complicate the picture: end users and advertisers. It's not clear to me that we need to go through the motions of trying to persecute one of these groups in particular, since the situat…

I don't think so, no. It's wrong to equivocate between groups "following their incentives". Facebook could have chosen not pursue algorithm-based advertising as a business model. The news companies didn't have the option of ignoring Facebook (and Google) by about 2014 or 2015 (news companies also didn't conduct unregulated psychological tests or commit fraud to push a video-first model). I don't really blame Facebook for playing the game, but if you play, you also accept the consequences when society gets sick of your shit.

It's hardly persecution to insist that American businesses stop doing gross harm to the American people. Your personal anecdote is largely irrelevant compared to Facebook's earnings report - lots of people still use these platforms and they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. It's unlikely that these companies will pivot their business model in the absence of oversight. I've stopped using it too, but we absolutely should create market rules to deal with the obvious abuses that have occurred so they don't crop up again.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#587

Post by shadowgovt »

free_rms wrote: post #584
shadowgovt wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only there were some kind of, I dunno, training to help clarify and de-magic these words. ;)

Do you believe racists should be shamed and fired?

I don't believe people should be shamed and fired for having unconscious bias and confronting it.

There's a world of difference between confronting one's unconscious bias and unapologetic, willful racism.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#588

Post by free_rms »

shadowgovt wrote: post #587
free_rms wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe racists should be shamed and fired?

I don't believe people should be shamed and fired for having unconscious bias and confronting it. There's a world of difference between confronting one's unconscious bias and unapologetic, willful racism.

And, we're back to the magical shifting definition.

If there's such a world of difference, why conflate the two using the same word?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#589

Post by shadowgovt »

free_rms wrote: post #588
shadowgovt wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe people should be shamed and fired for having unconscious bias and confronting it. There's a world of difference between confronting one's unconscious bias and unapologetic, willful racism.

And, we're back to the magical shifting definition. If there's such a world of difference, why conflate the two using the same word?

That's a question for the English language and dictionary authors, not for me.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/10/us/merriam-webster-racism...

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#590

Post by 908B64B197 »

charlesu wrote: post #550
nsp wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it is illegal in california to consider race for public universities, so you could look at Caltech and Berkeley which fit most definitions of elite schools. Caltech is 48% Asian, while MIT is 25.7% for undergrad. There is the in-state vs out of state tuition distinction, so it's not exactly the same pool as east coast universities. Sources: https://registrar.caltech.edu/records/enrollment-statistics https:/…

> I believe it is illegal in california to consider race for public universities, so you could look at Caltech and Berkeley which fit most definitions of elite schools. Caltech is 48% Asian, while MIT is 25.7% for undergrad. These are interesting stats but they don't actually mean anything unless you can prove that the applicant pools for Caltech and Berkeley are similar to that of MIT. It's entirely possible, that C…

Caltech and MIT sounds like an interesting example: They are both extremely highly ranked (systematically among the top 5 in the world) and engineering/science focused.

Considering their ranking I would be willing to bet their applicant pool might significantly overlap (seeing as they attract world wide talent).

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