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‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#541

Post by dnissley »

arrosenberg wrote: post #386
TheKarateKid wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes algorithms contribute, but the media is the reason these problems go from being just an argument on social media, to an actual societal issue. Before the media started using social media as “facts” for their reporting, these arguments would just be another online “flame war.” Remember when we used those terms? Remember when online arguments remained as just that? Now, when 1000 people on Twitter try to cancel som…

I think this conflates two separate, but equally damaging issues. (1) Social media sites have been optimized in the same way tobacco was, to take advantage of human chemistry to make it as addictive as possible; and (2) news companies are run for a profit, and the profits all started going to online advertisers, so the news companies had to follow. Thus things that are important on social media, become important to n…

Don't you think it's too soon to play the blame game? Both of these groups were just following incentives (both to make money and also just survive in a competitive landscape).

On top of that there's also two other groups that further complicate the picture: end users and advertisers.

It's not clear to me that we need to go through the motions of trying to persecute one of these groups in particular, since the situation is already evolving. End users are starting to become wise to the ways in which they are manipulated by all three of the other groups, and not necessarily always in a conscious way -- I personally had a turning point where I was just tired of the cycle, it got boring, and I didn't even have to try to consciously cut out these things, they just kind of fell away while I spent my time elsewhere.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#542

Post by dmix »

cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #205
another-dave wrote: post #56

I think the main culprit exacerbating this is the main stream media. "Vox pops" have formed part of filling air-time or column inches for a long while, but this is largely replaced now by journalists looking at Twitter and either a) using that as a stand-in for 'this is what the public think' or b) making it the story itself. Social media is no longer just "second screen" below-the-line commenting on events, it's hel…

>I think the main culprit exacerbating this is the main stream media. I understand your argument but I also in no way want to distract from the culpability owned by social media companies, their product designers and managers, and the people who wrote the code to implement their desires. They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies. Traditional media companies may have exacerbated the…

> They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies.

What damage? The stuff people wrote on it? That's the people.

That's what I love about people who think everyone should vote. But just look at Twitter. Most people are poorly informed idiots who are hyper-emotional and inclined to mob-think.

I'm all for more direct democracy but that doesn't mean I want anyone and everyone to vote. We need informed voters.

Which is why I despise the drives to get random people out to vote for whoever they heard spoken the loudest about in relation to their issues.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#543

Post by lliamander »

cabraca wrote: post #34
rayiner wrote: post #4

I like the More in Common Project. But it overlooks the disproportionate representation of the extremists in our institutions. This happened at my alma matter earlier this year: https://freebeacon.com/campus/northwestern-law-administrator... . They also voted to abandon entrance exams at my magnet high school: https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=4979 It’s not comforting to know that only a tiny minority of people a…

I know those diversity sessions... They claim everyone who is white or passing as white is racist. I had to "confess" that i'm racist and promise to do better or it would have consequences for my career. Sidenote: I volunteer at a refugee center and took in a syrian family. Literally hitler, i know. A colleague got fired because he wouldn't confess and left the session. So even if that Dean said he is a racist, he's…

If you have the opportunity, please find a way to be a whistle-blower. IANAL, but this seems like a textbook "hostile work environment" and there are lawyers out there who are definitely interested in fighting this nonsense. Your sympathetic back story would definitely help.

There's also push back at the federal level against this, and public awareness is growing.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#544

Post by [deleted] »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #159
charlesu wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized tests could also be considered a way for picking the right kind of person: namely, people who know that standardized tests are something to prepare for. I’ve tutored students at both elite and underperforming high schools. Students at elite schools, irrespective of their socioeconomic status, are highly aware of the importance of standardized tests. Some of the underperforming high schools don’t even adm…

> " As for affirmative action being an effort to keep out Asians...have you been to Harvard’s campus? There are many, many Asian students there. In fact, nearly one in five students at Harvard are of Asian descent. The idea that elite schools are purposely excluding Asians is absurd on its face. The people pushing the idea have an axe to grind and it usually isn’t actually in the interest of Asian-Americans. " If you…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#545

Post by ardy42 »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #511
ardy42 wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the absolute laziest ways to write a "news" article is the "here are a list of things people tweeted about this topic" compilation. It's definitely less work that investigative journalism, but to the extent that twitter is influential, it's a topic that should be covered. IMHO, the media has (at least) two important jobs: 1) conduct novel investigations and 2) summarize the firehose of events and ideas into…

Your #2, summarizing, isn't what I usually see in these "here's what people are saying on Twitter" stories. The valuable version that you're talking about would have to include things like polls or something, saying "20% of people agree with this idea, 5% agree with this other idea, etc." Instead, these stories just say here's some tweets that are really edgy/funny/gotchas/something I agree with."

> The valuable version that you're talking about would have to include things like polls or something, saying "20% of people agree with this idea, 5% agree with this other idea, etc."

I disagree that would be "the valuable version." That's just "the more quantified" version. A music critic's list of the 100 best songs of 2020 is not inferior to Billboard's list of the 100 most popular songs of 2020 as determined by quantified data.

Twitter is a cultural phenomenon, and its milieu(s) and output aren't completely unworthy of journalistic attention. That's not to say it's a top shelf subject, but the "news" properly covers all kinds of similar things, and some, like sports for instance, have even less value.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#546

Post by pixl97 »

blm202021 wrote: post #414
cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the main culprit exacerbating this is the main stream media. I understand your argument but I also in no way want to distract from the culpability owned by social media companies, their product designers and managers, and the people who wrote the code to implement their desires. They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies. Traditional media companies may have exacerbated the…

I'm going to retort, specifically in the context of a very important issue in the US currently: the BLM movement. Contrary to popular thought, the "liberal" media utterly failed minorities. The abuse of minorities in the US spans generations and has consistently been relegated to the margins of mainstream news. It has been typical in the US -- for decades -- for the NY Times to grant a single death in Israel front pa…

Look up Noam Chomskys work and you'll see that he says there is no liberal media, only a corporate for profit one.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#547

Post by lliamander »

Miner49er wrote: post #138
cabraca wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know those diversity sessions... They claim everyone who is white or passing as white is racist. I had to "confess" that i'm racist and promise to do better or it would have consequences for my career. Sidenote: I volunteer at a refugee center and took in a syrian family. Literally hitler, i know. A colleague got fired because he wouldn't confess and left the session. So even if that Dean said he is a racist, he's…

Well that's the thing. These diversity training people do use a different definition of racism then what you are thinking of. The diversity training definition of racism doesn't simply mean prejudiced, it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. By that definition, most white people are probably "racist". If you understand the context used when they call them…

I'm sure you have sincere intentions, but I think you might benefit from being introduced to the concept of Motte and Bailey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

The point here is precisely to equivocate between two terms to manipulate others. You get your target to accept one claim using a relatively acceptable defintion, and the force them to concede rather more extreme claims by implicitly switching to a more self-serving definition.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#548

Post by pixl97 »

centimeter wrote: post #340
cmdshiftf4 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the main culprit exacerbating this is the main stream media. I understand your argument but I also in no way want to distract from the culpability owned by social media companies, their product designers and managers, and the people who wrote the code to implement their desires. They are ultimately guilty for the damage they have wrought on our societies. Traditional media companies may have exacerbated the…

It’s not clear that cigarette smoking is actually net harmful, due to the substantial decrease in obesity associated with smoking.

What an insane point of view. Both are terrible things that we should find solutions to.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#549

Post by charlesu »

supernova87a wrote: post #432
charlesu wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standardized tests could also be considered a way for picking the right kind of person: namely, people who know that standardized tests are something to prepare for. I’ve tutored students at both elite and underperforming high schools. Students at elite schools, irrespective of their socioeconomic status, are highly aware of the importance of standardized tests. Some of the underperforming high schools don’t even adm…

>...have you been to Harvard’s campus? There are many, many Asian students there. In fact, nearly one in five students at Harvard are of Asian descent. The idea that elite schools are purposely excluding Asians is absurd on its face.... So, as long as you see some people of a given race and it meets some arbitrary % in your mind, that's enough, is that the argument you're making? No discrimination going on then? This…

Harvard makes an effort to create a diverse class of students. That includes race but it also includes geography. Is Harvard excluding kids from New Jersey and New York because it goes out of it's way to admit kids from Nebraska and Montana?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#550

Post by charlesu »

nsp wrote: post #461
908B64B197 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for affirmative action being an effort to keep out Asians...have you been to Harvard’s campus? There are many, many Asian students there. In fact, nearly one in five students at Harvard are of Asian descent. The idea that elite schools are purposely excluding Asians is absurd on its face. The people pushing the idea have an axe to grind and it usually isn’t actually in the interest of Asian-Americans. Are there…

I believe it is illegal in california to consider race for public universities, so you could look at Caltech and Berkeley which fit most definitions of elite schools. Caltech is 48% Asian, while MIT is 25.7% for undergrad. There is the in-state vs out of state tuition distinction, so it's not exactly the same pool as east coast universities. Sources: https://registrar.caltech.edu/records/enrollment-statistics https:/…

> I believe it is illegal in california to consider race for public universities, so you could look at Caltech and Berkeley which fit most definitions of elite schools. Caltech is 48% Asian, while MIT is 25.7% for undergrad.

These are interesting stats but they don't actually mean anything unless you can prove that the applicant pools for Caltech and Berkeley are similar to that of MIT. It's entirely possible, that Caltech and Berkeley have a higher proportion of Asian applications. It's also possible that underrepresented minorities that could be admitted to Caltech or Berkeley pick Harvard or Princeton because they're more well-regarded and more diverse. I wouldn't be surprised. Elite schools compete for the same kids.

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