Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Surviving Disillusionment

spakhm.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 179 posts

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#111

Post by outworlder »

endymi0n wrote: post #100
heroHACK17 wrote: post #5

I struggle with this and I am only two years into my career. I look back on my CS education and miss it so much. About three months ago, I started a ritual where I would spend 60 minutes before work every morning reading books about the internals of popular software or programming languages, histories of technology, etc. It rekindles my love for computing that brought me to CS in the first place. Instead of constantl…

Interesting. For me it's the opposite. I hated university with a passion. The synthetic problems, the fake currency of citations, the dogmatic and first-principle free way of learning. It took me all of quitting, years of depression and accidentally restarting my career through a tech support gig to rediscover the massive joy I had solving problems with code.

I hated university too.

I mean, I thought it would be a walk in the park and fun to boot. Computer Science - the computer part was cool. Science was cool too, so a Computer Science course would be amazing!

Except... it's not really about computers. And it's not about science either. It's a complete misnomer. Only after the sunken cost fallacy had taken full hold I realized that it was actually a math course.

If you took most of the Computer Science curriculum back in time, to a monastery hundreds of years ago, with no physical computers, it could still be taught in the exact same way! That's great, but not really what I thought I had signed up for.

Was it useful? Yes. Was it worth 4 years? No. And, for a while, I had a very dim view of myself, as I didn't excel like my peers did. This had negative and long lasting impacts. Took a long while to realize that it had nothing to do with my ability, just my lack of interest.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#112

Post by ci5er »

freeqaz wrote: post #84
ci5er wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I have for a long time. Now with Kindles, I don't have to load 10 paperbacks into my computer bag every time I go on a global jaunt. A lot of time in airplanes and hotels gives you a lot of time for this (on average - which is why I said "per week", not "per day"). But, most under 250 page non-fiction books can be polished off in less than two hours. A lot of people spend two-hours/day watching some Netflix movie…

I've spent a long time trying to speed read and I'm still much slower than where I'd like to be. How are you able to read through 2 pages per minute and still have context on what's going on? Do you have any advice for learning to do that?

I'm sorry ... I don't!

My father expected me to do so, at the age of 7, so I did. I don't think of it of speed reading - maybe it is. I did lose half my speed when I lived in Japan for a decade (learning to read in Japanese slowed my English input speed,

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#113

Post by fizzyfizz »

I appreciate what Slava has written here. But I noticed something odd about his recommendation.

He noticed that doctors can get through the bullshit because they have contact with patients. It's anecdotal of course, but it seems common in caring professions. Why else would anyone be an underpaid grade school teacher?

But Slava doesn't come up with an exact parallel for programmers. He suggests studying the history of technology, and reacquainting oneself with the sheer fun of building things. These are maybe good, but he doesn't seem to be telling a story of how he recovered from disillusionment. At best he's speculating that these are things that might work. I suspect they won't, because they miss something important.

Nobody is sincerely thanking us for doing these things.

Unlike doctors and grade school teachers, if programmers had more contact with end users, they'd probably get burned out faster. The things we build rarely make anyone happier.

There are ways you can justify the work - creative destruction ideology, or maybe you can delude yourself into thinking that mashing together APIs is somehow getting the world closer to some better future. And maybe they are even right.

But are people really meant to work this abstractly? This detached from outcomes? There's nothing to propel you through the bullshit.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#114

Post by SirLuxuryYacht »

ci5er wrote: post #56
quickthrower2 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do "book clubs" and we are doing a Hackathon soon where I work. I think these things do keep you motivated. I am not ready to use lisp! But I do like to have a side project going at work. Often I merely get to think about the side project an maybe do a tiny bit of research, but it's motivating. It usually of the form "what would disrupt our app" or "why don't we just X". By side project I mean for work, not me com…

How does the "Book Club" thing work? By briefly observing it at my pre-Covid work-place, it seemed that (somehow) a book was chosen, people would buy and read it within about 30 days, and then sit around the lunch table and discuss their impressions or feelings or something. I read about 5 fiction and 2 non-fiction books per week, so the reading is not the challenge for me. The challenge for me is that I feel that I…

IME there needs to be a purpose to be worthwhile. Is it for entertainment or professional development? There are lists of books that people make, e.g. Bill gates, the singer Noname, Obama's. This way the effort of selecting a book can be outsourced or the group can democratize it. Pick a theme, nominate books, then vote. Call it what you want, happy hour or book club, but meet online and be ready to have a discussion of your and others' ideas.

Also, the discussion should not be a battle. If the group cannot appreciate considering opinions or thoughts on a piece of literature then it might not be a good group to be a part of. Do you judge people for holding non-consensus opinions? inb4 moral relativism, so it's a function of company culture.

Sounds like you have either experienced a bad book club, or have contributed to a bad book club. Touchy-feely things might feel awkward in the workplace so its probably beneficial to avoid books of that nature and stick to subjects where everyone has a valid opinion.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#115

Post by ci5er »

kbenson wrote: post #94
ci5er wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess it depends on workplace culture? I have worked and/or consulted at places where I would not have been (in general) afraid to be bold. Books like "Think" by Simon Blackburn don't bother me to comment on. They are pretty light treatments of the underlying topics, but (as philosophy), they are framed as rational discourses. (Whether they are or not is a different topic). Topics about things like emotional intell…

It certainly does feel like people (in the US at least, which is my exposure) are quicker to categorize you than before. It doesn't matter if 95% of your beliefs are similar, if you happen to be in a situation where that other 5% are relevant and express them, it certainly seems like there's a good chance the people around you that are less acquainted with you are going to assume you're part of whatever group general…

This seems about right. I do not agree with some people, but I want to hear them and do not want to censor them.

It seems that this favor is not returned.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#116

Post by the_cat_kittles »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #74

Disillusionment was a crucible for my career. I went through it and wouldn't have it any other way. On the other side of it you attain focus on what is valuable to you, which is singularly useful for evaluating subsequent jobs. However, the crucible for me consisted of: depression, burnout, tendonitis. It sucked. From that, I decided I'd never do webdev again, including so-called backend. The web as a medium is not w…

as a web dev, i have disdain for just about every venture that i work for, and my goal is to exert as little energy as possible. i actually think this is healthier than trying to pretend like you care about the product. i make sure that i am not actively worsening inequality or destroying the climate when choosing where to work. but i have no illusions that my work is anything other than just a (hopefully failed) attempt by my employer to make themselves richer. i say hopefully because i think the distribution of resources is already too lopsided here in america. i am somewhat conflicted about if this means i should stop working in this field altogether. i am generally quite effective and seem to deliver what whomever is writing my checks wants, and the checks are pretty decent. but i guess i have to, in a broad sense, bite my tongue and pretend that the product is not stupid. whereas in my younger days, i think i staked some of my ego on my ability, or perception thereof, now i am mostly indifferent to criticism from people who have no idea what they are talking about, and criticism from peers is actually enjoyable because i can learn something. i guess i am about as detached from my job as i can be, mentally.

if this were all i did i think it would be really bad for me. but i am a musician and over the last year or two, starting to lay the foundation of an electronics recycling plant. so those two things are both very meaningful to me and fill the hole. but sometimes i worry a little bit about how stupid i think what i do for the majority of my money is.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#117

Post by the_cat_kittles »

fizzyfizz wrote: post #113

I appreciate what Slava has written here. But I noticed something odd about his recommendation. He noticed that doctors can get through the bullshit because they have contact with patients. It's anecdotal of course, but it seems common in caring professions. Why else would anyone be an underpaid grade school teacher? But Slava doesn't come up with an exact parallel for programmers. He suggests studying the history of…

this is the kind of comment i have been making in much less eloquent terms on hn for a couple years. thank you for putting it well. im somewhat inspired by the comments in this thread- i dont think ive seem so many people owning up to this on here before.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#118

Post by sharadov »

fizzyfizz wrote: post #113

I appreciate what Slava has written here. But I noticed something odd about his recommendation. He noticed that doctors can get through the bullshit because they have contact with patients. It's anecdotal of course, but it seems common in caring professions. Why else would anyone be an underpaid grade school teacher? But Slava doesn't come up with an exact parallel for programmers. He suggests studying the history of…

I made peace with this another way, took a remote job so that I have time for pursuits that I enjoy - working out, racquetball, reading, cooking, traveling and being there for my kids.

You can look for meaning elsewhere, not all professions are fulfilling, and yes medicine is one of the few professions where there is a direct tangible correlation between effort and reward. You see your patients getting better.

But it's endlessly taxing to be a good doctor, you can't really have much of a life if you are truly a good doctor.

My parents were doctors, ran a hospital and really passionate ones at that, but they had no time for anything else. So if you are dedicated like that more power to you. On the flip-side I've seen more doctors who were into it only for the money than ones who were true to the Hippocratic Oath.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#119

Post by jfengel »

freeqaz wrote: post #84
ci5er wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I have for a long time. Now with Kindles, I don't have to load 10 paperbacks into my computer bag every time I go on a global jaunt. A lot of time in airplanes and hotels gives you a lot of time for this (on average - which is why I said "per week", not "per day"). But, most under 250 page non-fiction books can be polished off in less than two hours. A lot of people spend two-hours/day watching some Netflix movie…

I've spent a long time trying to speed read and I'm still much slower than where I'd like to be. How are you able to read through 2 pages per minute and still have context on what's going on? Do you have any advice for learning to do that?

I suspect a lot of it has to do with the kinds of books one reads.

Many years ago a friend claimed to read a book a day. She was referring to cheap paperback fantasy books, her preferred genre. She could read them very fast because she already knew what was in them. She told me she mostly read the dialogue, which would definitely cut down on the time spent reading.

So perhaps the OP is reading mostly books they're already familiar with -- novels in a genre they like and nonfiction on topics they already mostly know. If so, you might be able to do similar things.

Re: Surviving Disillusionment

#120

Post by ci5er »

SirLuxuryYacht wrote: post #114
ci5er wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the "Book Club" thing work? By briefly observing it at my pre-Covid work-place, it seemed that (somehow) a book was chosen, people would buy and read it within about 30 days, and then sit around the lunch table and discuss their impressions or feelings or something. I read about 5 fiction and 2 non-fiction books per week, so the reading is not the challenge for me. The challenge for me is that I feel that I…

IME there needs to be a purpose to be worthwhile. Is it for entertainment or professional development? There are lists of books that people make, e.g. Bill gates, the singer Noname, Obama's. This way the effort of selecting a book can be outsourced or the group can democratize it. Pick a theme, nominate books, then vote. Call it what you want, happy hour or book club, but meet online and be ready to have a discussion…

Yeah - that all makes sense to me.

I'm thinking that maybe small projects: "Hey! Let's build this together" would be more productive. The book club(s) where I have worked have been more cross-functional, which I think is good, but a lot more divisive than group development projects. I'm still trying to get my head around how it is all supposed to work. (I used to be a founder/CTO of a fairly large (in the 90s sense, not the 2010s sense), fintech company and on the board, and you would think I would have figured it all out by now, but the culture, it keeps changing! :-) )

Post reply on HN