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Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

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Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#21

I have mixed feelings about this. In one side, I'm happy that some of the people affected by the Mozilla layoffs have now secured a job. On the other side, now almost all the power of the WASI standard is concentrated into the Fastly corporation (with wider penetration thanks to the WASI integration in Rust). The main and only player of the Bytecode Alliance becomes Fastly as well (as Mozilla is out of the server-sid…

surely you have a better example of your gripe than closing a GH issue on the logo design... the whole conversation on your end seems petty and toxic, at first glance.

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#22
I will stay pessimistic here. Wiring VCLs is painful and very limited. But writing Rust takes CDN support to completely different level. Even if they will introduce other languages i don't understand why anyone would rely on Fastly to run their software. Especially once you realize you need some storage and it will Fastly again.

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm interesting idea... but - wasm has modules, "imports", and "exports" for I/O and host communication. The glue is one of the harder parts of the problem. - wasm bytecode is sandboxable with a simple MMU mapping. That's one reason it has structured control flow rather than goto. (And this is why you need a special algorithm to compile C gotos to wasm.) RISC V certainly doesn't limit itself like that. So I think this…

I don't completely understand your second point there, because I'm not necessarily talking about full-system emulation. Just userspace emulation. So, why can't RISC-V be a sandbox? It's just loading a normal ELF into a virtual memory. The first point is news to me, but I suppose you can build anything you want in an open ISA too. It looks like each object is like a shared object with an import and export table that c…

The wasm paper covers these issues, and is short and pretty readable:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=14979605902538775...

tl;dr security introduces a lot of design constraints that RISC V doesn't have.

section 2.3 on structured control flow:

WebAssembly represents control flow differently from most stack machines. It does not offer simple jumps but instead provides structured control flow constructs more akin to a programming language. This ensures by construction that control flow cannot form irreducible loops, contain branches to blocks with misaligned stack heights, or branch into the middle of a multi-byte instruction. These properties allow WebAssembly code to be validated in a single pass, compiled in a single pass, or even transformed to an SSA-form intermediate form in a single pass.

Also, wasm is a "Harvard architecture" rather than von Neumann (separate address space for code and data), also for security reasons:

section 2.2:

Linear memory is disjoint from code space, the execution stack, and the engine’s data structures; therefore compiled programs cannot corrupt their execution environment, jump to arbitrary locations, or perform other undefined behavior. At worst, a buggy or exploited WebAssembly program can make a mess of the data in its own memory.

However, wasm also leaves some things to be desired security wise. Buffer overflows in C are still buffer overflows once you compile to wasm, and can be chained in to JS exploits.

https://old.reddit.com/r/ProgrammingLanguages/comments/icb9v...

If you try to use RISC V in the same contexts, you'll have the same problems. If you have an additional layer of process sandboxing, then those could be mitigated. But then RISC V is not a wasm replacement.

Although maybe wasm is hopeless for C code, so you need more sandboxing anyway, so then it's on par with RISC V... interesting question.

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#24

My money was on Cloudflare to have hired them wholesale. Regardless, congratulations to everyone involved! This deal has got me thinking... whether a right way to "lay-off" a supremely talented bunch is to actually see if other companies are willing to offer them jobs? Kind of how player transfers happen in Football (soccer). Either the team goes to the newer company wholesale or you help find your engineers suitable…

In my experience, acqui-hires benefit the company far more than the employees who get moved to a different company. The first time I was acquihired, my compensation actually decreased because they kept my base salary and rewrote the bonus structure such that it was impossible to hit previous payouts. Meanwhile, my prior company received a large payment for the transfer of our team. Ironically, the new company was pay…

In my opinion, the acquihire you went through was poorly implemented, and the pay reduction disrespectful.

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#25
post #9

My money was on Cloudflare to have hired them wholesale. Regardless, congratulations to everyone involved! This deal has got me thinking... whether a right way to "lay-off" a supremely talented bunch is to actually see if other companies are willing to offer them jobs? Kind of how player transfers happen in Football (soccer). Either the team goes to the newer company wholesale or you help find your engineers suitable…

This is the acquihire model. You don't actually have to do the acquihire. A company could just offer folks jobs directly (CA frowns on companies working to block employee mobility given employers can also fire folks with basically no notice). But it smooths things to wrap it up in an acquihire. Startups often get offers like this. Wasn't there a recent case on HN where google or apple after the company rejected the a…

Acquihire was not quite what I was getting at...but more along the lines of companies cooperating to facilitate quasi-free movement of their employees under appropriate conditions especially when it benefits all or the majority of the stakeholders involved, even when it is a single lone employee.

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#26
Contrary to most comments so far apparently, I'm just happy to see any WASM projects secure corporate backing. I think Ferrous System wrote about it nicely[0], but having people full-time on projects like this has a tremendous positive impact.

Congratulations to the whole Wasmtime team! :)

[0]: https://ferrous-systems.com/blog/knurling-one-month/

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, acqui-hires benefit the company far more than the employees who get moved to a different company. The first time I was acquihired, my compensation actually decreased because they kept my base salary and rewrote the bonus structure such that it was impossible to hit previous payouts. Meanwhile, my prior company received a large payment for the transfer of our team. Ironically, the new company was pay…

In my opinion, the acquihire you went through was poorly implemented, and the pay reduction disrespectful.

I think their more general point still stands, though; why would you expect a company trying to "sell" their employees to negotiate in the employees' best interests rather than that of the company itself?

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#28
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm interesting idea... but - wasm has modules, "imports", and "exports" for I/O and host communication. The glue is one of the harder parts of the problem. - wasm bytecode is sandboxable with a simple MMU mapping. That's one reason it has structured control flow rather than goto. (And this is why you need a special algorithm to compile C gotos to wasm.) RISC V certainly doesn't limit itself like that. So I think this…

I don't completely understand your second point there, because I'm not necessarily talking about full-system emulation. Just userspace emulation. So, why can't RISC-V be a sandbox? It's just loading a normal ELF into a virtual memory. The first point is news to me, but I suppose you can build anything you want in an open ISA too. It looks like each object is like a shared object with an import and export table that c…

Had an idea of trying to "script" things for games, the idea was to use a the WASM backend of a regular C/C++ compiler to generate code that could be loaded dynamically and share structures (ignoring sandbox for this) so that testing could be done seamlessly, sadly WASM seems to be 32bit for the time being (atleast for Clang, dunno about GCC but that has other issues), also looked at Risc-V and missing export/import tables looks like it could make things far more complicated (might still try using Risc-V though since i'm thinking of generating syscall tables automatically along with Elf-loading)

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#29
post #27
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, the acquihire you went through was poorly implemented, and the pay reduction disrespectful.

I think their more general point still stands, though; why would you expect a company trying to "sell" their employees to negotiate in the employees' best interests rather than that of the company itself?

I wouldn't... but I would expect the company trying to "buy" the employees to act at least partly in their interests - otherwise the new employees will soon become ex-employees!

Re: Fastly hires entire Wasmtime team from Mozilla

#30
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, acqui-hires benefit the company far more than the employees who get moved to a different company. The first time I was acquihired, my compensation actually decreased because they kept my base salary and rewrote the bonus structure such that it was impossible to hit previous payouts. Meanwhile, my prior company received a large payment for the transfer of our team. Ironically, the new company was pay…

In my opinion, the acquihire you went through was poorly implemented, and the pay reduction disrespectful.

That's somewhat irrelevant without data on what percentage of acquihires are poorly implemented.
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