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Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

taibbi.substack.com

551–560 of 596 posts

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#551
post #483

I fear Taibbi is right, the suppression by Twitter, irrespective of the merits and veracity of NY Post's report, will now normalize all kinds of behavior by platforms of all kinds big and small. Which will then incentivize governments to take on the platforms. This also raises issues of unequal treatment - say the NY Post report was factually wrong - why pick on the NY Post only? Why not the hundreds of other "news o…

In fact new form of political advertising: suppress messages between users that mention stories you don't want to bubble up.

I love it! It's like adsense, the parties can bid to determine whether or not a story should be promoted or suppressed

And you thought casino keywords brought in revenue...

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure twitter said they blocked it because the information came from a hack, not because they claimed any veracity for it being fake or not.

Can you point me to a claim from the Bidens or law enforcement that the information was hacked? What are your thoughts on the Trump tax records which were criminally released to the NYT not being censored?

> Can you point me to a claim from the Bidens or law enforcement that the information was hacked?

I'm not aware of any claim from them. I thought the claim of the hack comes from the NY Post article itself where they said the shop owner made a copy of the hard drive.

> What are your thoughts on the Trump tax records which were criminally released to the NYT not being censored?

You're using the word "criminally released" but that is an unproven fact, the times claims that "all of the information The Times obtained was provided by sources with legal access to it". Now I wonder how that can be as well, but at least that's the statement.

So at least from the perspective of being a small time employee of Twitter that has to work on moderation, I can see them looking at both article and thinking the first one talks about a hard drive being copied by a shop owner and leaked. While the other is nebulous on the origin but claims it was legally obtained.

This is obviously all speculation. But that be my thoughts, that I can see how the policy might have applied to one and not the other.

I also have to think that it coming from the NY Post must have contributed. I don't assume Twitter reviews every tweet manually, and I can see how NY Post is more likely to get flagged than NY Times.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#553
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course they flagged it. Even more ironic is you missed the point of the post anyway, and your core reply here off: it wasn't meta-discussion, it was an entirely different discussion on the overuse of flagging on this site with examples of how it's happening + call for comments specifically on how to change flagging. In fact it was constructive, and the tone tempered. Not being able to discuss changes to the flag s…

By meta I mean Hacker News threads about Hacker News. Meta is the crack of internet forums. Users tend to flag such threads and moderators tend to moderate them because they're mostly all the same, they breed like rabbits if allowed to, and they're not actually interesting—they're internet drama, which feels interesting but isn't. Such pseudo-content pleases/riles the self-obsessed minority (I mean the minority of HN…

I think there's a difference between meta-drama and discussion of improving the algorithm itself to avoid meta-drama.

I'd actually honestly like to hear your reply on the proposals for flag rule changes. I think they would work, and would improve the discussion quality. We'd get more "out of the box" stuff - far left or right, but also just more out there ideas.

Finally - you spend a ton of time on the meta stuff. I read over a few pages there. You say often you don't have time for it. Perhaps it's time to try making some changes that would reduce the burden? And not ones that further lock it down, but instead add some transparency?

You guys already have vote brigading rules, flag brigading seems natural. Adding cost will improve the quality. Making vouches more precious would improve the quality.

Perhaps add a meta column to the topbar and direct/move all meta discussions there? I know your reply will be "this will only further it" but I doubt it, they could then avoid the home page altogether.

Only trying to help here, but I think you're now so meta-tired you've forgotten that meta discussion can be constructive and there's perhaps really simple changes that would reduce a good chunk of these complains.

Final note - seems like a lot of the complaints are all going the same direction. Maybe they're valid and not just drama.

Edit: let me reframe it in a way that may be helpful: if you could reply to every meta thread with a single link to a static page on HN, a small write up that included a changelog of the latest rule changes you've implemented, a clear policy enumerated, and a link to a "meta" area where you'd automatically move comments/threads, you'd save yourself a ton of time going forward, and I think you'd gain a ton of positive goodwill on the site. You'd conquer the meme thats been building for years as well.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#554
post #321
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How the heck can an opposing party "meddle" in an election that the very party itself is contending in?

By fabricating a story to be released exactly on October 15 where there's not enough time to verify if it is true or not. We are here on Hacker News, are you certain that a legally blind person in Delaware. would be the guy to fly to all the way from California to repair water damaged laptop? If you don't know how such repair looks like, I recommend you to search Luis Rosmann on YouTube (actually cool to watch anyway…

I assume by your broken english you are a foreign actor? btw, the repair shop is located very close to one of the Biden residences.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are alarmed by these moves because they represent a wider trend in which the left increasingly does not recognise the right as politically legitimate, i.e. they do not believe non-leftists should be allowed to exist. Those two things aren't remotely the same. The legitimacy of the right in the U.S. is an open question when they participate in direct voter suppression, gerrymandering, continually lose popular…

>>>But you need to provide some very strong evidence "they [the left] do not believe non-leftists should be allowed to exist." At least one very recent example: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/oct/12/keith-olber...

Keith Olbermann, currently hosting on the mainstream news channel of YouTube (/s) after being evicted from actual mainstream news, is the opposite of strong evidence. Further:

> "The hate he has triggered, the Pandora’s box he has opened, they will not be so easily destroyed,” he said. “So, let us brace ourselves. The task is twofold: the terrorist Trump must be defeated, must be destroyed, must be devoured at the ballot box, and then he, and his enablers, and his supporters, and his collaborators, and the Mike Lees and the William Barrs, and the Sean Hannitys, and the Mike Pences, and the Rudy Gullianis and the Kyle Rittenhouses and the Amy Coney Barretts must be prosecuted and convicted and removed from our society while we try to rebuild it and to rebuild the world Trump has nearly destroyed by turning it over to a virus."

The implication "should not be allowed to exist" is very different from "prosecuted and convicted and removed from our society." So even taking a marginalized voice talking from his YouTube channel, arguing that the left believes the right "should not be allowed to exist" is a ridiculous stretch.

You need to read more than just the headlines.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point me to a claim from the Bidens or law enforcement that the information was hacked? What are your thoughts on the Trump tax records which were criminally released to the NYT not being censored?

> Can you point me to a claim from the Bidens or law enforcement that the information was hacked? I'm not aware of any claim from them. I thought the claim of the hack comes from the NY Post article itself where they said the shop owner made a copy of the hard drive. > What are your thoughts on the Trump tax records which were criminally released to the NYT not being censored? You're using the word "criminally releas…

>I'm not aware of any claim from them. I thought the claim of the hack comes from the NY Post article itself where they said the shop owner made a copy of the hard drive.

The NY Post article claims the laptop was abandoned at the repair shop (never picked up) and that according to the law in that state became the legal property of the shop owner.

>all of the information The Times obtained was provided by sources with legal access to it

Notice that The Times does not say the source was legally authorized to release it. I didn't say it was criminally accessed, but that it was criminally released. For example, if an IRS employee or an employee at Trump's accountant released it without permission, those would be crimes.

>So at least from the perspective of being a small time employee of Twitter that has to work on moderation

I can accept that for the low level employee at the time of moderation. But once it got so high up that @Jack commented on it, and now over a week later the NY Post's account is still banned, it doesn't float.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 13th, 19th and 2nd amendments exist in the constitution, as written: 13th: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. 19th: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on acco…

> "interpret the constitution as it was written" > amendments "was written" would not include "amendments". Perhaps it was meant to be "is written" and that would definitely include the amendments but then you absolutely do not get to call yourself an "Originalist" because, e.g., the 19th was passed 130 years after the Constitution was written and for damn sure none of the framers were still alive then.

Clearly I meant the whole constitution, including every accepted amendment; I suppose they become part of the constitution as soon as they are accepted?

Anyway I think this should be obvious. The subset of people who has long time accounts on HN and who also are for slavery is really small, possibly non-existent.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can I open a shop only for people only and claim that if you don't like it, go somewhere else? How about other categories, protected or otherwise? You're missing the fine distinction between protected and non-protected categories. Discrimination based on what you are is banned - those constitute the protected categories. Sex, gender, national origin, race, family status, veteran status, religion, and sexual orienta…

So can I be banned from a social media platform if it so happens that I am a member of a church that forbids something and it so happens that I am vocal about it? > But by and large, if you do or say something on my premises that I dislike, I can kick you out. It cannot be a fuzzy "I dislike what you do", as it is prone to selective enforcement (and I can still discriminate based on what you are, but maintaining plau…

I have no idea, legally speaking, what they would be permitted to do.

In reality what they would actually do would depend on what that "something" is. If it's something like "don't eat meat on odd-numbered dates", you're probably fine. On the other hand, you say something harmful or distasteful to other protected categories, you'd be lucky to keep your account. They'd weigh the harm to you of kicking you off versus the harm to others by letting you stay and (of course) the PR liability incurred by doing either.

If the discrimination criteria are broadly found to match up with a protected class you're in legal hot water. IOW using proxies for "plausible deniability" is a risky strategy and businesses have been punished in the past for doing it.

> It cannot be a fuzzy "I dislike what you do", as it is prone to selective enforcement

You're right it can be. But again, consider the alternative on online forums. Anyone could post porn or vulgarity on religious forums, or socialist propaganda on business forums. It would be very disruptive if selective enforcement weren't allowed.

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 13th, 19th and 2nd amendments exist in the constitution, as written: 13th: Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. 19th: The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on acco…

> "interpret the constitution as it was written" > amendments "was written" would not include "amendments". Perhaps it was meant to be "is written" and that would definitely include the amendments but then you absolutely do not get to call yourself an "Originalist" because, e.g., the 19th was passed 130 years after the Constitution was written and for damn sure none of the framers were still alive then.

Different parts of the constitution were written at different times. Amendments are part of the constitution regardless of when they were written.

Originalists interpret the applicable parts of the constitution as they were written, when they were written.

Search Scalia on the topic and watch some videos. He goes into pretty interesting depth on the subject. It's pretty fascinating.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?292678-1/justices-breyer-scali...

Re: Suppression is a bigger scandal than the actual story

#560
post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that a private entity can do is toss you off their platform. If every single private website threw you, and your views off the internet tomorrow, you'd return to the age of tyranny and darkness... That ~every human being on earth lived in prior to ~1995. The horror! In contrast, your government can kill or imprison you, if you say something it doesn't like - but for some strange reason, nerd culture spills gallon…

Sure, so Chrome and Safari blacklist your websites. You're only back to 1995, the horror. Then Amazon refuses to sell your books. And VISA refuses to let people buy them, if they find them in an alternative outlet. What's the big deal, you're only rolled back to the 1980s. And then they go a step further and say, if you're assisting in the distribution of these books, we'll cut off your AWS and payment processing ser…

Ah, yes, our means of communication have been captured by the extreme left.

That's why in 2020, when you go on Facebook, you can't even talk about conservative ideas, like Laffer curves, owning guns, reducing entitlements, pooh-poohing (non-police) unions, voting for a republican, the virtues of surprise-billing and of having your health insurance tied to your employer, starting wars against yet another state that most of us can't even place on the map...

But, wait, you can.

If that's how Facebook erases conservative ideas, they are doing a pretty poor job of it.

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