PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab • Hacker News Board

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#201

Post by rndgermandude » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

nojito wrote: post #195

rndgermandude wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they? Some may be, such as proud boys and dailystormer may be afoul of some (vague) hate speech clauses. Others may not be. paypal and CC companies also shut down donations to wikileaks long ago (long before Trump was a thing). And even shut down donations to other foundations, such as the Wau Holland Stiftung of the Chaos Computer Club[0], that collected donations in part for wikileaks. My first real memory of p…

I'm sorry but no one should have any right to tell private organizations who they can and can't do business with. What you're advocating for is extremely dangerous and shortsighted.

Wait, so it's just dandy that private organizations can and do censor as they please, but it's wrong to demand of them to not do business with cyber criminals and people selling child porn?

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#202

Post by gruez » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #198

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can draw the definition as widely as you like: not even the ACLU says that censorship carried out by private citizens is illegal or that the right response to it is more laws.

I didn't say either, I didn't say it was illegal - quite the opposite - or that the right response is more laws. However, I did say in the past, that in certain circumstances I do think the right response is laws. There are laws e.g. prohibiting utility companies from refusing customers they do not like like people who criticize the company or nazis and "nazis". I do think that common infrastructure companies (analog…

>I do think that common infrastructure companies (analog to the utilities companies, just essential digital services) such as cloudflare, dns registrars, hosting and cloud providers shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against people with the "wrong" opinions.

I don't think that's a good analog. In your area there's only one electric/water/gas company, and 2-3 wired telecoms (eg. phone, cable, maybe fiber). You don't really have much of a choice there. However, there are dozens of CDNs, domain name registrars/dns providers, and hosting providers.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#203

Post by gruez » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #199

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PayPal is undeniably a money transmitter, a type of money service business that is required to required to register as such and perform certain minimum levels of compliance work. If Masterbucks is "like PayPal" from that perspective, subject to certain de minimis thresholds, then they too are likely to require registration. Frankly, if this is the case, and the Epik people are complaining that PayPal's due-diligence…

It's fair, but is it PayPal's job to enforce that? If I sell MasterCard pre-paid cards at my corner store, will Visa come audit me and ask what sort of people I'm selling those cards to?

>It's fair, but is it PayPal's job to enforce that?

Yes, because it's using their payment network. I'm not sure why your example involves Visa auditing a purchase of a prepaid mastercard.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#204

Post by nemothekid » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:38 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #199

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PayPal is undeniably a money transmitter, a type of money service business that is required to required to register as such and perform certain minimum levels of compliance work. If Masterbucks is "like PayPal" from that perspective, subject to certain de minimis thresholds, then they too are likely to require registration. Frankly, if this is the case, and the Epik people are complaining that PayPal's due-diligence…

It's fair, but is it PayPal's job to enforce that? If I sell MasterCard pre-paid cards at my corner store, will Visa come audit me and ask what sort of people I'm selling those cards to?

Yes. When you deposit the money you earned from your pre-paid cards in your bank account, once you reach a certain size your bank will certainly start asking how you are making money, and if you say "gift cards/cash equivalents that can be traded online" they will also start to ask you who you are selling these cards to. From the banks point of view, they don't want the FBI to come knocking saying that carders in Russia were using the banks money to launder purchases from stolen credit cards. If the bank can't cough up those records they are in hot water.

PayPal is the middleman that turns Masterbucks into cold hard cash into your bank account. If PayPal didn't enforce it, then in the eyes of the government PayPal is complicit also.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#205

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:40 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #199

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PayPal is undeniably a money transmitter, a type of money service business that is required to required to register as such and perform certain minimum levels of compliance work. If Masterbucks is "like PayPal" from that perspective, subject to certain de minimis thresholds, then they too are likely to require registration. Frankly, if this is the case, and the Epik people are complaining that PayPal's due-diligence…

It's fair, but is it PayPal's job to enforce that? If I sell MasterCard pre-paid cards at my corner store, will Visa come audit me and ask what sort of people I'm selling those cards to?

From my point of view, PayPal has a reasonable case to want to understand that its business partners are legally compliant if acting as a money service business.

Your example is not really the same. If you started using your merchant terminal to take payments on your own off-brand money transfer service, you can be pretty sure that you're going to get cut off just as soon as your processor finds out.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#206

Post by ceejayoz » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

kypro wrote: post #137

ceejayoz wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't stop being African American, and it's generally accepted that homosexuality is the same. You can stop being a Proud Boy. If you look at what are deemed by law to be "protected classes", they are generally things that can't be readily changed - age, gender, disability, race.

How does one change their political believes? I'd argue that some of my political beliefs are as firm and unchangeable as my sexual preferences. But to play along with your logic here, what if someone was a member of a feminist organisation? Do you believe it would be acceptable for a company to refuse to do business with people who are members of feminist organisations? And if your argument is that it's possible to…

> Do you believe it would be acceptable for a company to refuse to do business with people who are members of feminist organisations?

On a legal level, yes. I would avoid doing business with that company as a result, but they'd be well within their rights to do it. I'd be well within my rights to boycott and tell my friends about it.

> And if your argument is that it's possible to pretend not to be a feminist, can the same not also be said for someones sexual orientation?

My employer's health insurance would allow me to add a same-gender spouse, but doesn't ask if they're a feminist.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#207

Post by rndgermandude » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 6:52 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #202

rndgermandude wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say either, I didn't say it was illegal - quite the opposite - or that the right response is more laws. However, I did say in the past, that in certain circumstances I do think the right response is laws. There are laws e.g. prohibiting utility companies from refusing customers they do not like like people who criticize the company or nazis and "nazis". I do think that common infrastructure companies (analog…

>I do think that common infrastructure companies (analog to the utilities companies, just essential digital services) such as cloudflare, dns registrars, hosting and cloud providers shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against people with the "wrong" opinions. I don't think that's a good analog. In your area there's only one electric/water/gas company, and 2-3 wired telecoms (eg. phone, cable, maybe fiber). You don't…

It doesn't matter if there are dozens of CDNs. Look at what happened to dailystormer, they were unable to find a CDN. Yes, they are bad nazis and are pretty much underserving of anybody's pity, but it still shows how easily those few market players (and an angry twitter mob) can banish stuff from the internet, driven by some public outrage.

There is a handful of CC companies and payment processors. Look at what happened to adult performers and sex workers (even the ones operating completely within the law): they cannot even get a bank account once they are found out to be in those businesses.

Want to run a legal dispensary selling legal weed? Though luck, no banking for you either, and even finding a datacenter that will take your servers will be tough.

The market position of the big players, network effects and also often the regulatory capture makes sure you cannot just "build your own" in a lot of areas. And even if there is competition - like there is with hosting - you'd be hard pressed to find a hoster that will have you. And even once you found such a hoster, it probably will not last because angry mobs start to write emails to that hoster, or DDoS it.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#208

Post by NovemberWhiskey » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

rndgermandude wrote: post #207

gruez wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I do think that common infrastructure companies (analog to the utilities companies, just essential digital services) such as cloudflare, dns registrars, hosting and cloud providers shouldn't be allowed to discriminate against people with the "wrong" opinions. I don't think that's a good analog. In your area there's only one electric/water/gas company, and 2-3 wired telecoms (eg. phone, cable, maybe fiber). You don't…

It doesn't matter if there are dozens of CDNs. Look at what happened to dailystormer, they were unable to find a CDN. Yes, they are bad nazis and are pretty much underserving of anybody's pity, but it still shows how easily those few market players (and an angry twitter mob) can banish stuff from the internet, driven by some public outrage. There is a handful of CC companies and payment processors. Look at what happe…

>Want to run a legal dispensary selling legal weed? Though luck, no banking for you either, and even finding a datacenter that will take your servers will be tough.

If we're talking about the U.S., Federal law still maintains that marijuana is a Schedule I drug. It is hardly surprising that banks and other service providers are hesitant to form relationships with customers whose primary business is "illegal drug trafficking" from a U.S. government perspective.

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#209

Post by cambalache » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 7:24 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #152

root_axis wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-hosted servers are already against Comcast TOS, they tolerate them for casual use but any significant traffic is going to result in a service interruption.

How does one self host their own online speech then? Whatever your answer is, that thing should not be controlled by a private company.

You dont, that's the point. The people saying that are being disingenuous, they know what they final goal is. If any of the measures, would have been taken against people they agree ideologically with they would be up in arms. Compare the reactions to the case when a gay couple drove hundreds of miles to specifically ask to a well known bakery owned by conservatives to make them a gay wedding cake, the guys refused btw silly thing and all the mainstream media wouldnt shut up about censorship. When the same thing is done to right-wingers you get OP's reaction, "stop complaining and create your own Visa, Amazon and Youtube"

Re: PayPal terminates account of Epik, home to Proud Boys domain and Gab

#210

Post by cambalache » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 7:29 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #55

gedy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that now, but if the political winds change in future and progressive ideals and orgs are then labeled "hate speech", promoting violence, I suspect there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

If liberal ideals of fairness, equality and so on become considered "hate speech" I believe that the society suffering through that will have much bigger problems to tackle than companies' censorship. Both sides are not the same.

You are more part of the problem than you could ever imagine.