L.A.'s coast was once a DDT dumping ground, but no one could see it until now

Post by btilly » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:13 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #140

tsdlts wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I don't think it's even relevant that it was not legal at the time". Imagine setting the precedent that the government can unilaterally decide to steal your property based on something your great grandfather did which wasn't even a crime. Do you not see how such a power might be abused in future when you can retroactively punish people for laws where the ink has yet to dry and that they never even committed?

Ex post facto laws are forbidden by the US constitution.

Post by x86_64Ubuntu » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:21 PM UTC

macspoofing wrote: post #46

dusted wrote: post #2

It's amazing how little some people have cared, this was not that they didn't know, they certainly knew, otherwise, it'd not have resorted to hiding the stuff by dumping it into the sea.. It'd not be unreasonable to hunt down those responsible, and make them pay for cleaning it up. Sure, they're probably dead by now, but they probably left a lot of money. I don't think it's even relevant that "it was not illegal at t…

The problem with your approach, besides the immorality of arbitrary post-hoc rationalization for punishment, is that it is not pragmatic. What's done is done, and you need people to get behind making it better. If you come out and push a policy that in part entails rooting and punishing those responsible (or even descendent of those responsible), you'll have people come out against it just for that reason and the env…

Post by quasse » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

nickpp wrote: post #111

1propionyl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See? This is why we don't need environmental regulations. The market will regulate itself if externalities are properly priced in! (Just pay no mind to how those externalities might be systematically priced and how penalties might be retroactively enforced. If you do you're a freedom-hating socialist!)

After the 2nd world war, governments all over the world exploded atomic ordinance on land, on islands, in water and underground. The environmental effects were unimaginable. Regulate that.

Post by refurb » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:24 PM UTC

relativitypro wrote: post #132

x87678r wrote: post #122

While this dumping is horrific you also have to understand how beneficial DDT was: > Between 1945 and 1965, DDT saved millions-even tens of millions-of lives around the world, perhaps more than any other man-made drug or chemical before or since. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/07/02/the-mosquito-k...

1. Saving human lives may not be the best metric (given that even this metric is evolving in time, and I claim unknowable) 2. The green revolution benefits were several orders more significant, and will be seen as the spark that enabled climate change. Responsibly using technology is our biggest task.

Post by mercer » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 3:25 PM UTC

1propionyl wrote: post #23

faitswulff wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A pilot experiment more than a decade ago to bury the DDT [at the Palos Verdes superfund site] under a thick cap of clean sand showed mixed results. Then sampling in 2009 suggested that most of the DDT had mysteriously vanished — prompting a burst of headlines and more internal paralysis. The longtime project manager unexpectedly retired, and many of the scientists who had dedicated decades of their careers to the…

Ah, so the front fell off. In that case the DDT was just transported outside of the environment. There's nothing there, except water, and fish, and birds. (In case it isn't clear to anyone, this is heavy sarcasm and a reference to a well known satirical skit.)