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‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#161

Post by barrkel »

komali2 wrote: post #157
barrkel wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jumping from generalizations about groups to specifics of individuals is inherently unjust - as is the inverse, generalizing about a group from a few individuals. Generalization from systematic group aggregation is useful for exposing systemic biases, but action should be specific to the circumstances of individuals independent of group membership or the risk of injustice is very high. Unsafe generalization is at the…

Let's get down to the core of your argument, which to me seems to be that white privilege doesn't exist. I can spend five minutes on google and turn up a cornucopia of studies that demonstrate otherwise, so why deny the exist of racial privilege?

No, the core of my argument is that treating individuals based on aggregates is unjust, as is generalizing to aggregates based on individuals. The former is prejudice in action - from the general to the particular - and the latter is prejudice formation - unsafe generalization from the particular to the general.

I have zero doubt that many people are treated differently based on skin and other overt characteristics. But that's not my argument.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#162

Post by crazygringo »

It's good to get every bit of confirmation we can of this, but the "myth of polarization" has been known for a long time -- best described in Morris Fiorina's 2011 book Culture War? The Myth of a Polarized America.

There is overwhelming evidence that at the end of the day, people's political and issue views are overwhelmingly bell curve-shaped.

The issue is that the bell curve gets split into categories. American voters are given two options, so people get split into "right" and "left" even when the mode is in the center. Or academics define the "center" extremely narrowly and therefore claim a majority of citizens are polarized.

[1] https://www.google.com/books/edition/Culture_War/s5YZQQAACAA...

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#163

Post by Miner49er »

dTal wrote: post #153
Miner49er wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the thing. These diversity training people do use a different definition of racism then what you are thinking of. The diversity training definition of racism doesn't simply mean prejudiced, it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. By that definition, most white people are probably "racist". If you understand the context used when they call them…

That's not even slightly what "racist" means, though. The accepted term for what you are describing is "privileged". If you're going to assert that every white person is "racist" regardless of their beliefs, you render the term meaningless and might as well just say "white".

Well, I said "most". I was a bit wrong. It's not just benefiting from racism that makes you racist by the definition, it's being a part of one of the systems that props up racism.

Here's a definition from the ADL for systemic racism.

"A combination of systems, institutions and factors that advantage white people and for people of color, cause widespread harm and disadvantages in access and opportunity. One person or even one group of people did not create systemic racism, rather it: (1) is grounded in the history of our laws and institutions which were created on a foundation of white supremacy;* (2) exists in the institutions and policies that advantage white people and disadvantage people of color; and (3) takes places in interpersonal communication and behavior (e.g., slurs, bullying, offensive language) that maintains and supports systemic inequities and systemic racism." [1]

So if you support one of the "systems, institutions and factors", you are by this definition, racist. I just said most white people probably are, by this definition.

[1] https://www.adl.org/racism

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#164

Post by Zenst »

derriz wrote: post #23
arethuza wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"there is no counterpart to the hyper-polarised TV of Fox News yet" The Daily Mail?

To be fair, the Daily Mail seems to have toned it down a bit since the editor changed a few years ago. Subject to the caveat that I haven't lived in the UK for over 15 years, overall the popular press in the UK is a bit shocking. I don't know of any liberal western country where you see the kind of racism routinely displayed on the front page of mainstream/popular UK newspapers. Perhaps xenophobia rather than direct…

"opinion pieces" nailed it there and sadly that is what journalism has become and fuelled these so called `culture wars`, it's as if they create the issue to report about - which given the bulk of content in the Guardian (other newspapers just as guilty and maybe more so), I find somewhat farcical.

I miss the days when all the facts was reported, instead it is opinions that are slanted one side or another to market to the social media rabbles of the moment. In effect social media like twitter has becomes the REUTER/news wire source of news and opinions are treated as news today.

But in a world in which problems are ignored until some celeb parrots them, one can only cry at the loss of real investigative journalists who are drowned out by a sea of bandwagon opinion pile-ons.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#166

Post by coldtea »

dTal wrote: post #153
Miner49er wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the thing. These diversity training people do use a different definition of racism then what you are thinking of. The diversity training definition of racism doesn't simply mean prejudiced, it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. By that definition, most white people are probably "racist". If you understand the context used when they call them…

That's not even slightly what "racist" means, though. The accepted term for what you are describing is "privileged". If you're going to assert that every white person is "racist" regardless of their beliefs, you render the term meaningless and might as well just say "white".

Several SJWs say just that.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#168

Post by coldtea »

komali2 wrote: post #151
Miner49er wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's the thing. These diversity training people do use a different definition of racism then what you are thinking of. The diversity training definition of racism doesn't simply mean prejudiced, it means a part of a system of power that benefits people considered "white" at the expense of others. By that definition, most white people are probably "racist". If you understand the context used when they call them…

Why didn't they use the term "privileged" then? I'm very happy to acknowledge my privilege, but I'd have to push back if someone was asking me to declare that I'm racist. I'm also happy to hear about times I was unintentionally so, but to lump me into the same boat as the people that were screaming in my face that I'm a race traitor for holding a black lives matter sign doesn't feel fair.

>Why didn't they use the term "privileged" then?

They use that too, interchangegly and confusingly...

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#169

Post by LandR »

pessimizer wrote: post #143
pvaldes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had to "confess" that I'm racist and promise to do better or it would have consequences for my career. So, basically inquisitor wannabees and pseudoscience cultists. Your colleague dodged a bullet. The idea that claiming that you are racist makes you not racist is totally gaga, random, and based in magical thinking, not in science. It only helps to hide in plain sight the real racists making much easier to admit…

If you go around asking who the "real racists" are, you'll never find any. Turns out self-reporting is dubious.

If you declare everyone a racist then finding the actual racists becomes a much harder problem.

Firstly, if everyone is a racist then the word racist loses meaning. So when you have an actual racist and say this person is racist, it's meaningless. Everyone is racist.

Secondly, the amount of false positives will just be crazy high. How can this possibly ever work?

I don't know what they think they are achieving?

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#170

Post by valboa »

charlesu wrote: post #46
throwawaycltr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't able to find the details about this course the faculty participated in but I wouldn't read too much into it. For some of these you must describe yourself as a racist and apologise for your evil. Suggesting that perhaps you're not that bad means it's even worse than we feared. I don't think someone who really was a "gatekeeper of white supremacy" would describe themselves that way.

Being racist isn’t the same as being evil. Just about everyone, to some extent, is racist. I don’t see how that’s an extreme claim. Humans are a social species. We have in-groups and out-groups. Often times the most salient marker for whether someone is in your group is whether they share certain phenotypes or language. There’s nothing weird about that. It’s expected. It’s our default setting. But it does lead to tre…

This is a cult like approach. The main proposition "Everyone is a racist, whether you know it or not", is an overstatement. There is no way you can tell "everyone" is a "racist", is just an aphorism with multiple interpretations. This has become the tool of identity politics and group thinking, throw and aphorism and let people fight over it. Unfortunate.
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