Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

phoronix.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

611–620 of 714 posts

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#611

Post by swiley »

goatinaboat wrote: post #83
swiley wrote: post #67

Sure X.org is abandonware but there are serious problems Wayland still hasn't solved that X has. 1) Wayland is really slow. I don't know if it's the compositing or what but it's unusable on lighter hardware that X ran fine on. 2) Widget toolkits handling window decoration is awful. Before the large number of toolkits just meant some controls were a little different but now basic behavior changes based on how programm…

Wayland is really slow. I don't know if it's the compositing or what but it's unusable on lighter hardware that X ran fine on. This is crazy when you think about it. I remember running an X server, Hummingbird I think it was called, on 386 and 486 machines connecting to Suns and it was fine , this was a perfectly acceptable way to work. Couple of xterms, an Emacs, xbiff for email, maybe some xeyes just for fun. Devel…

I feel like I should point out I was thinking of my 64bit core-i5 machine when I made that comment. A 386 won't even run a modern Linux kernel.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#612

Post by cipherboy »

krageon wrote: post #582
sergeykish wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This criticism looks like "free as beer and I know better". 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit 2. That new thing can have some help too I recommend developers story about this "mostly working thing" (2014) [1]. It is quite fun and eye opening, he clearly knows his subject better than most of the comments. Wayland demo worked almost from day one. I've run it in 2010 [2]. But we need applications, that…

Saying Wayland is just non-functional for reasonable use-cases without significant user workarounds (usually going back a decade in execution and clarity) isn't toxic culture, it's the truth. Yes, people can work on what they want. By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.

I strongly disagree. Since switching to Fedora almost 4 years ago, I've only booted to X.org once, three years ago. I haven't needed it since.

I do browser-based screensharing (of both individual windows and the whole screen), I have a mixed DPI monitor setup, I've played games on Steam, &c. I need no workarounds. GNOME just works.

About the only things I don't use are nvidia's crappy drivers.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#613

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

msla wrote: post #516
horsawlarway wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

X works for me on systems with multi-month uptimes (dictated by software updates that have nothing to do with X) and networking windows over the Internet, something RDP (and, to the best of my knowledge, Wayland) is incapable of. Meanwhile, Wayland doesn't run the software I want to run and doesn't run on the hardware I own.

RDP can be used for individual applications.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#614

Post by sergeykish »

Androider wrote: post #438
nsajko wrote: post #132

If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…

The problems Wayland solve are those of yesteryear, sprinkled with the broken dreams that we'd all be running it on Linux phones by now. In that context a strict security model makes sense. Trouble is, that security model makes no sense on today's desktop. In 2020, people aren't downloading and running native applications on desktops, not even (especially?) on Linux. The desktop is now solely a manager of browser win…

> Trouble is, that security model makes no sense on today's desktop.

At least some users disagree. Flatpak and snap run applications in sandbox. I am to used for open source software, I fear installing closed source like Opera, MS Edge (not supported on Linux yet), Steam. And Steam with Proton is the next thing to bring Linux on the desktop.

Why are you comparing X11 and Wayland?

If something does not work on X.Org we are better with another project than with nothing. If Chrome and Zoom work on X.Org stick to it.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#615

Post by sergeykish »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #608
sergeykish wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you should fine community that shares your views. I don't use pulseaudio, networkmanager, desktop environment, works perfectly in Arch Linux [1]. Arch has great wiki, it is correct. System is quite transparent. I am fine with systemd but, for example, Void Linux [2] uses runit, Alpine Linux [3] uses OpenRC and is compiled statically. Arch Linux pacman serves my needs perfectly, it is quick, it shows only releva…

> Lots of Linux distributions is its strength. Unless you want to ship something, troubleshoot something, or figure out how something works without hours of googling.

Would you better not able to solve at all?

Ship and troubleshoot solved by distro maintaires. Niche products solved by Flatpak and its runtimes.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#616

Post by sergeykish »

utxaa wrote: post #601
sergeykish wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you assert that Wayland failure is that is not ready for end user. Strange point, it should have been burned 10 years ago than. I use X.Org, works perfectly in Arch Linux, some claim problems on in their distribution. It should be critique of that distribution. > Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland And Firefox support is behind MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 flag. Clear…

this is all going to end in X12.

you would preach but you would not contribute

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#617

Post by mwcampbell »

ddevault wrote: post #413
dang wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Detaching flamewars so that they languish at the bottom of the page is standard HN moderation and the reason we do it should be obvious. If you don't want that to happen, nothing is easier to avoid (from a moderation point of view): simply provide corrective information respectfully. Of course that is not so easy from a personal frustration point of view—that is something every HN user (certainly including me) has to…

The commons are full of propeganda and misinformation at the hands of your policies to "protect" them. Your guidelines are not holy writ, and are unfit for this task.

If you had responded with rebuttals to the misinformation in the article and/or comment thread, plus a link to your previous article, without the snarky tone, your comment thread probably wouldn't be languishing at the bottom of the page. It's not enough to be right; tone matters too.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#619

Post by maxhille »

arpa wrote: post #102
kriive wrote: post #57

I have been using sway on Fedora for a year. It's been really good so. It's a smaller niche than X.org's, but I get to do everything I need. HiDPI support is just right, just throw output eDP1-1 scale 2 in the config and you're set. Clipboard works perfectly splendid, screen-sharing works (not as perfectly splendid as clipboard does), input works, chromium/electron is getting support for native wayland. Qt and GTK Wa…

Just out of curiosity, how does screenshare work for you? I've been trying setting it up for work (slack/teams), but to this day it just doesn't work. Using debian sid, so pretty up-to date packages tbh. I just start new xorg session for screenshare, which, frankly, sucks.

The Electron apps are not there yet. I too have to use Slack ATM and my workaround is too have Pipewire working with Browser (Chromium and Firefox in my case) and use Slack in the Browser when I need to share my screen. If the target you want to share is a X window, you won't even need Pipewire since WebRTC will just work without it.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#620

Post by sergeykish »

mcguire wrote: post #549
mcguire wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" One of these days you should read the X section of the Unix Haters Handbook. " I have. It was written by someone who doesn't know the difference between a "client" and a "server".

No, really. The author, whose name I can't remember at the moment, complains that X has the server/client roles reversed; that xcalc is a server and the display is a client. The usual defense is that it's "tongue in cheek", but from a networking standpoint it is simply wrong.

You login to the server and run application, that application connects to the X Server on your client.

    +----------------+     +----------------+
    | Client         +---->+ Server         |
    |                |     |                |
    | +-----------+  |     | +-----------+  |
    | |X Server   +
I can see how confusion may arise.
Post reply on HN