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The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

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Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#601

Post by utxaa »

sergeykish wrote: post #583
krageon wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying Wayland is just non-functional for reasonable use-cases without significant user workarounds (usually going back a decade in execution and clarity) isn't toxic culture, it's the truth. Yes, people can work on what they want. By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.

I believe you assert that Wayland failure is that is not ready for end user. Strange point, it should have been burned 10 years ago than. I use X.Org, works perfectly in Arch Linux, some claim problems on in their distribution. It should be critique of that distribution. > Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland And Firefox support is behind MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 flag. Clear…

this is all going to end in X12.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#603

Post by utxaa »

wegs wrote: post #430
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #422

What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: 1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of 2) that new thing which doesn't work in so many cases it's laughable, even after 11 years. How many years was it between the concept of X and a working release at Palo Alto? Note that the new situation is so perfect for passing the buck from the windowing system to the compositors, an…

Newer isn't better-designed. Unix was really well-designed, compared to so much of the modern stuff, and it does everything I need. Nineties Linux was a nice Unix. I wish we hadn't spent the past quarter-century turning it into nineties Windows, with layers upon layers upon layers of cruft. I don't get why Wayland is slow, when Enlightenment was fast on machines with 32MB of RAM, a 3dfx Voodoo, a spinning HDD, and a…

the buck is passed onto the compositor. so sway is fast, kde might be slow (or janky). it's not as uniform as with X/window manager.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#604

Post by School-Cotton »

wegs wrote: post #599
School-Cotton wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you would enjoy OpenBSD.

Computers aren't things I enjoy. They're things I stomach. I think I'd use OpenBSD if I were confident that after setting it up, it worked reliably, without changes, for the next few decades, with transparent system upgrades. Part of that is working Bluetooth, power management, webcams, video conferencing, OBS, and similar. Historically, OpenBSD was behind Linux on working reliably. Debian used to do this before: 1)…

Fair enough.

Webcams and power management work fine on OpenBSD (assuming there exist drivers for your hardware), but Bluetooth isn’t supported at all.

What I like about it is the simplicity of everything. If you want to change your mouse sensitivity, you add a line to a particular file in /etc. If you want to autojoin a particular WiFi network, you add the SSID and password to a particular file in /etc. If you want to start a daemon on boot... you get the idea. No massive complex configuration systems with giant blobs of XML that nobody understands.

Unfortunately the flip side is that things move more slowly — they won’t support Bluetooth until someone writes code that meets the system’s bar for correctness, simplicity, reliability, documentation, etc. — which might be never. But the stuff that does work is fantastic.

If hardware/software support requirements tie you to more mainstream OSs, I do agree with other posters that Arch is the closest thing to what you want, but it’s still far from perfect.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#605

Post by anthk »

wegs wrote: post #587
sph wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially in the Linux world where not asking too much of their own PC is seen as a virtue, so people are running tiling WMs from the nineties, spend their time in Emacs and say everything is fine. Meanwhile I want my Linux system to run VR, multiple 4K displays, very demanding games and bluetooth headphones. And Linux is the worst for it, because everything feels laggy and half polished there and on the proprietary…

No one is saying everything is fine. It's not. What we're arguing is why everything is not fine. SGIs ran VR, multiple displays, and very demanding apps in the nineties too. They did all sorts of wonky, complex, 3d input devices too. So did DEC Alphas. This is the stuff Unix was built for. My claim is that nineties Linux was much closer to having the right architecture for it than 2020 Linux for this sort of stuff. T…

> think the only piece nineties Linux didn't anticipate was the level of hot-swapping hardware

They did, modular kernels date back as 2.2 at least. And USB was born in that era.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#606

Post by sergeykish »

nsajko wrote: post #534
cedilla wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you dismiss any reasoning as "userhostile" and "FUD" it will be difficult to understand any change. For the life of me I can't understand why so many people are always convinced that people who develop replacements for decades old frameworks do it only to spite users. But the answer is: X sucks. It's 36 year old software with dozens of extensions. No one wants to write software that uses X, and apparently, per t…

OK, X sucks in a way (although your argumentation for that is wrong), but replacing X with Wayland is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. (Also, I don't think Wayland fits in any hole nicely, with it being hostile to even such basic and universally expected features such as taking a screenshot.) I don't understand where you are going with your first paragraph, except that you are assuming things about ot…

>>> with it being hostile to even such basic and universally expected features such as taking a screenshot.

>> "userhostile"

https://www.google.com/search?q=sway+screenshot

http://sergeykish.com/sway-grim.png

less than a minute. And it is second time in decade I've tried Wayland.

>>> why is it being marketed as a X11 replacement? Why is there a constant FUD-included push to dissmis Xorg in favor of Wayland compositors?

>> "FUD"

> Wayland is intended as a simpler replacement for X, easier to develop and maintain. [1]

"Intended" is not "ready". Could please cite your claims?

> replacing X with Wayland

Would you prefer if X.Org developers just abandoned it? We would have "X.Org is Abandonware" ten years ago.

And it is not zero sum game. These are different projects. People tried to fix X and failed. No one on this thread is going to maintain X.Org. But hope is not lost — another project have risen to maturity in last ten years. It covers some use cases and now you are bashing it because it is not perfect.

All of it while X.Org still works and I use it every day.

[1] https://wayland.freedesktop.org/

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#607

Post by anthk »

bsder wrote: post #528
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #422

What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: 1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of 2) that new thing which doesn't work in so many cases it's laughable, even after 11 years. How many years was it between the concept of X and a working release at Palo Alto? Note that the new situation is so perfect for passing the buck from the windowing system to the compositors, an…

> 1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of Except that X11 is NOT "mostly working" for a significant amount of modern usages. Yes, if you happen to want to run your Terminal, Emacs, etc. remotely over a network connection, X11 is your huckleberry--but only because anything more complicated than a bitmap makes that a very difficult problem. If you want HiDPI, subpixel anti-aliasing, color calibr…

>f you want HiDPI, subpixel anti-aliasing, color calibration, multiple resolutions on multiple displays, smooth video, no tearing,

We had XV, RandR, antiaiasing and color managers with smooth video and no tearing since early 2000's. WTF are you talking about?

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#608

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

sergeykish wrote: post #592
wegs wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a magical different userbase Linux has to serve which has somehow bizarre needs not served by thoughtfully-designed older software, but which newer, poorly-designed software somehow meets. Yes, we need a newer web browser, but that could run on old-school Linux/Unix just fine. Aside from that, there isn't anything wrong with nineties Linux which couldn't have been brought up to modern standards with a bit…

Maybe you should fine community that shares your views. I don't use pulseaudio, networkmanager, desktop environment, works perfectly in Arch Linux [1]. Arch has great wiki, it is correct. System is quite transparent. I am fine with systemd but, for example, Void Linux [2] uses runit, Alpine Linux [3] uses OpenRC and is compiled statically. Arch Linux pacman serves my needs perfectly, it is quick, it shows only releva…

> Lots of Linux distributions is its strength.

Unless you want to ship something, troubleshoot something, or figure out how something works without hours of googling.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#609

Post by anthk »

pengaru wrote: post #402
blitblitblit wrote: post #197

So can we revive any of these also abandoned alternatives? * Tiny X (Still Xorg just barebones and faster) - https://github.com/tinycorelinux/tinyx * Xynth - https://github.com/alperakcan/xynth * Nano-X / MicroWindows - http://microwindows.org/ (Seems still active? Just needs some modern GUI ports.) * DirectFB (Needs modern driver support) - https://web.archive.org/web/20120118003245/http://www.direct... * SVGALib (N…

You left out GGI/KGI. But most of this stuff is basically irrelevant in a post-KMS/DRM linux world. So few apps were ever written targeting directfb and libggi it's as if they never existed. SVGAlib apps frequently performed direct hardware access requiring root and disrupting graphics hardware state WRT other graphical apps like X or fb. Unfortunately we have a significant collection of old demos and games targeting…

I think directdb stuff is KMS/DRM compatible.

Mplayer on the fbdev2 driver works perfectly. So is DirectFB Links.

>Unfortunately we have a significant collection of old demos and games targeting SVGAlib, but at this point it's probably best to just run them in a virtualized linux environment lacking any graphics drivers so SVGAlib can run the show on a faked VGA.

Or a wrapper trapping SVGAlib calls to SDL/SDL2.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#610

Post by swiley »

pengaru wrote: post #355
swiley wrote: post #67

Sure X.org is abandonware but there are serious problems Wayland still hasn't solved that X has. 1) Wayland is really slow. I don't know if it's the compositing or what but it's unusable on lighter hardware that X ran fine on. 2) Widget toolkits handling window decoration is awful. Before the large number of toolkits just meant some controls were a little different but now basic behavior changes based on how programm…

> 1) Wayland is really slow. I don't know if it's the compositing or what but it's unusable on lighter hardware that X ran fine on. Presumably your compositor is using llvmpipe software rendering if it's so slow. Unaccelerated Xorg using something like the vesa driver is slow too.

I own machines that have no hardware acceleration (I had to remove the kernel modules and use the efi framebuffer because the drivers would crash.)

Xorg is absolutely usable on such machines with compositing disabled, wayland is not.

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