‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#81

Post by jlokier » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:09 AM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #73

arethuza wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone thinks that racism at all levels isn't a problem I can strongly suggest reading about the Windrush scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal I'm in the middle of a reading a book about it at the moment and to say I am appalled by how these people were treated is an understatement.

How did “we lost the paperwork” turn into “well you look foreign so leave your country”?

You should have seen the despicable "Go Home" vans that were circulating for a while.

And the "hostile environment" that is legally mandated homelessness (people aren't allowed to rent privately, landlords have to check with .gov for "eligibility" to rent).

All those "we lost the paperwork" people are subject to that. They would have lost their jobs, gradually had their banks close the accounts (with no alternative), had their landlords gradually unable to continue the tenancies (each renewal would check), and if they were sick, found themselves rejected at hospital. Someone died due to cancer treatment being stopped.

Some other people who were resident did the decent thing and supplied the tax office with minor tax corrections after their accountants made small errors. This was encouraged by the tax office, we're all supposed to do that and it's quite straightforward. For that good behaviour they got labelled as having bad character and kicked out, because... any excuse to. That's a doubly-harsh label as it limits their rights in other countries in addition to being kicked out of the UK.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#82

Post by zozbot234 » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:10 AM UTC

donohoe wrote: post #60

zozbot234 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The oversensitivity over race and cultural heritage in the U.S. is at a point where talking about having a "shared ethnic background" might well be a stretch. It's hard to see the difference compared to a place like Belgium, although the latter has been dealing with it for longer, and found unique ways to cope with their situation. The race-based division in the U.S. also heavily reinforces differences in culture tha…

"oversensitivity over race"? To be clear, this isn't a difference of culture we're talking about. We're talking about people who routinely get murdered and harassed by police, disenfranchised, paid less ins salary, and excluded from many professional roles by default.

> We're talking about people who routinely get murdered and harassed by police, disenfranchised, paid less ins salary, and excluded from many professional roles by default.

You're of course right that the criminal justice system treats minorities very badly, and that many people are unfairly disenfranchised and excluded from many professional roles due to their past interactions with this problematic system. But that has nothing to do with a claim that our society itself is irredeemably racist, or that everyone is irredeemably racist.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#83

Post by formerly_proven » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:11 AM UTC

donohoe wrote: post #77

kharak wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is completely baffling that anyone could not see the cult characteristic of a ritual where you're required to tell everyone around you that you are inherintly guilty. Seriously? What else do you need? Proclamation of the believe in unseen powers?

"cult characteristic of a ritual" Thats a big stretch.

Respond with an actual argument, or don't respond at all.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#84

Post by thinkingemote » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:11 AM UTC

dmurray wrote: post #72

> It states that 12% of voters accounted for 50% of all social-media and Twitter users – and are six times as active on social media as are other sections of the population. That's not a tiny minority: it's a pretty reasonable dispersal of social media use. 12% of the population accounting for 50% of anything is a more egalitarian distribution than we see with, say: wealth, healthcare use, or educational attainment.…

12% of voters is not 12% of the population.

People who didn't vote, People who are too young to vote, People who cannot vote. Etc

Voters as a group is meant to reflect that proportion of the population that is involved with the political process at the basic level.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#85

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:11 AM UTC

totetsu wrote: post #69

You know I don't recall hearing the term "culture war" when I was studying critical theory and culture and media and so on at university last decade.. I heard about hegemony, and how theories of cultural transmission have changed over time.. I heard of Edward Said and his The Myth of the “Clash of Civilizations”, I heard of Virilio's "Pure War" of technology vs humanity... but I can't recall any discussion of a cultu…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#86

Post by _iyig » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:12 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #42

cabraca wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know those diversity sessions... They claim everyone who is white or passing as white is racist. I had to "confess" that i'm racist and promise to do better or it would have consequences for my career. Sidenote: I volunteer at a refugee center and took in a syrian family. Literally hitler, i know. A colleague got fired because he wouldn't confess and left the session. So even if that Dean said he is a racist, he's…

Is there any real proof that these diversity sessions actually help people work in diverse environments? The way you describe this, it reads like a really, really weird cargo cult where just confessing to one's supposed racism will somehow make you more open to people of differing backgrounds. How exactly does this help?

In the manner of all business consulting, it 'helps' by letting management say, "Look, we hired a consultant! We care deeply about ____ and have given it our best shot. If any problems related to ____ arise in the future, blame the consultant." In this case, the blank is diversity and inclusion.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#87

Post by arethuza » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:14 AM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #81

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did “we lost the paperwork” turn into “well you look foreign so leave your country”?

You should have seen the despicable "Go Home" vans that were circulating for a while. And the "hostile environment" that is legally mandated homelessness (people aren't allowed to rent privately, landlords have to check with .gov for "eligibility" to rent). All those "we lost the paperwork" people are subject to that. They would have lost their jobs, gradually had their banks close the accounts (with no alternative),…

Operation Vaken (who came up with that name?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Go_Home%22_vans

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#88

Post by luckylion » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:15 AM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #68

barry-cotter wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first describes a quasi-religious ritual in which all participants ritually affirm that they are unworthy sinners, racists. Those who believe get the satisfaction of publicly proclaiming their sin, signaling their superiority over the outsiders. Those who don’t believe have their faces rubbed in the fact that other people have the power to make them lie in public about who they are and what they believe. It shows…

On the first, you’re overreacting. I’ve gone through such training and it was nothing like you describe.

Did you have to say "I'm a gatekeeper of white supremacy" to complete the training? Either your threshold for "looks cultish" is very high or you didn't go through that kind of training.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#89

Post by cabraca » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:16 AM UTC

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #45

cabraca wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know those diversity sessions... They claim everyone who is white or passing as white is racist. I had to "confess" that i'm racist and promise to do better or it would have consequences for my career. Sidenote: I volunteer at a refugee center and took in a syrian family. Literally hitler, i know. A colleague got fired because he wouldn't confess and left the session. So even if that Dean said he is a racist, he's…

> So even if that Dean said he is a racist, he's probably not unless you warp the definition of racism. Please elaborate on what you mean by "warp the definition of racism".

> Please elaborate on what you mean by "warp the definition of racism"

changing the definition of racism so a specific targetgroup is included. For example instead of "discriminate minority groups" they say "disadvantage minority groups" and then include things like those entrence exams as a disadvantage. In the end everything is somehow racist.

Re: ‘Culture wars’ are fought by tiny minority – UK study

#90

Post by charlesu » Mon, Oct 26, 2020, 11:20 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #36

charlesu wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the first link, some administrators took part in an anti-racism training and in the second a school got rid of an entrance exam. What’s extreme about either of those things?

The first describes a quasi-religious ritual in which all participants ritually affirm that they are unworthy sinners, racists. Those who believe get the satisfaction of publicly proclaiming their sin, signaling their superiority over the outsiders. Those who don’t believe have their faces rubbed in the fact that other people have the power to make them lie in public about who they are and what they believe. It shows…

> The first describes a quasi-religious ritual in which all participants ritually affirm that they are unworthy sinners, racists.

Why would being racist make someone an unworthy sinner? Racism is just treating others differently based on their race. It’s not weird or evil. In fact, it’s perfectly normal and even understandable. Humans have probably always separated themselves into groups. Even chimpanzees do it. I think that’s what the trainings try to get at.

> The second is the destruction of an institution. A school for the gifted and talented with no mechanism to keep out those who are neither rapidly becomes just another school. Once the City University of New York was one of the major public research universities of the USA. Then it moved to open admissions. Now it’s nothing special. In contrast Berkeley instituted affirmative action which allows for different standards for different ethnic groups. It’s probably the top public university.

Meanwhile, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT, Stanford, and UVA all have affirmative action and are doing fine. Decades of supposedly different standards haven’t hurt their standing. They continue to graduate a diverse class of high achievers that are well-represented in just about every field imaginable. How does that square with your claims?

Are you sure you’re not the extremist? You seem to have an axe to grind.