I dunno. I use Fedora, and do a clean install of Fedora every new release. That's often. I try Wayland every time. And every time, I'm implementing several work arounds because things don't work, and when I hit 5 work arounds (the magic number), I disable Wayland with a script I wrote, that kills it at multiple levels, it doesn't even rear it's ugly head in the gdm. Then it's back to Xorg, and no more work arounds, everything works. I support several thousand servers. I only have so much time to dick around in Wayland.
The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
501–510 of 714 posts
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#502If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…
> These seem to be intentional design decisions (marketed as being necessary for security, but really being power-user hostile) That's an unnecessarily abrasive view: the Wayland protocol designers do not hate power users. But allowing programs to constantly take in arbitrary input & output information in the background, as well as simulate arbitrary input to other programs, is an obvious and glaring security flaw. U…
OK then, if Wayland is meant for closed and user-hostile platforms, why is it being marketed as a X11 replacement? Why is there a constant FUD-included push to dissmis Xorg in favor of Wayland compositors?
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#503I recently went back to dwm (X11) from Sway (Wayland). As much as I love Sway, doing all sorts of weird stuff just to share my screen in zoom is too much of a hustle. I'll probably keep using Sway on my personal device where I don't need that feature, but my work computer will be X11 for a while.
You can thank Zoom for using the proprietary GNOME D-Bus API instead of xdg-desktop-portal. (And you can also thank Zoom for being bad in general, I guess.)
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#504If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…
> Wayland is also, with its forced composition, hostile to interactive applications requiring low latency, e.g. video games. https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/gnomes-mutter-gets-fu...
Yeah, this is exactly what I'm talking about, with the feature only coming in 2020 and being specific to Gnome.
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#505If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…
> > It has been almost a decade, why does Wayland not have a protocol definition for screenshots?" - answer - "Because security, dude! Wayland is designed with the thought that users download random applications from the interwebz which are not trustworthy and run them. Wayland actually makes a lot of sense if you don't think of Linux desktop distributions and desktop systems, but of smartphones.
Funny, Android has had screenshots for a decade.
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#506Earlier quoted context omitted.
the fact that the system provides a choice is the issue that leads to fragmentation (which is the main problem). Saying "people could just do / not do X" absolutely never ever ever works, not in politics, not in programming, not in "not being an asshole to each other", not in "not using firearms", etc - things have to be enforced & unescapable at some point if we want sanity.
I’m not entirely sure that I understand your point. Here are the facts which I think we can agree on. * X11 is a protocol * Wayland is a protocol * X11 and Wayland are not compatible protocols * Wayland protocols are all public * XOrg is an implementation of the compositor of the X11 protocol * wl_roots is a toolkit used for creating compositors From this, it follows that: * Anyone can theoretically write another X11…
The wayland protocol (with the very few standard common extensions) does far less than the X11 protocol. There are extensions to Wayland that add missing functionality, but those are compositor-specific. Meaning effectively that each compositor has its own incompatible variant of the Wayland protocol. In that sense, it is not one Wayland protocol but a whole cesspool of them...
It will also get worse, because the architecture of wayland forces an implementer of a compositor (which replaces an X11 window manager) to implement a lot of the display functionality all over again. Wayland itself is just a lib that helps a little with it. In X11 terms, just imagine every window manager developer doing development against their own fork of X.org or a reimplementation of it. Wayland is designed in such a way that it causes incompatibility and fragmentation.
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#507Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm using a tiling window manager on Mac
Which one?
Perhaps Amethyst[1] or yabai[2]. You can also write your own with Hammerspoon[3].
[1] https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst [2] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai [3] https://github.com/Hammerspoon/hammerspoon
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#508What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: 1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of 2) that new thing which doesn't work in so many cases it's laughable, even after 11 years. How many years was it between the concept of X and a working release at Palo Alto? Note that the new situation is so perfect for passing the buck from the windowing system to the compositors, an…
This criticism looks like "free as beer and I know better". 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit 2. That new thing can have some help too I recommend developers story about this "mostly working thing" (2014) [1]. It is quite fun and eye opening, he clearly knows his subject better than most of the comments. Wayland demo worked almost from day one. I've run it in 2010 [2]. But we need applications, that…
It took python community 10 years to migrate to python 3, and the migration process from python 2 to python 3, while tedious, is certainly a lot easier than porting a gui app from xorg to wayland. It could take some time until most app developers finally migrated their apps from xorg to wayland.
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#509If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window man…
> These seem to be intentional design decisions (marketed as being necessary for security, but really being power-user hostile) That's an unnecessarily abrasive view: the Wayland protocol designers do not hate power users. But allowing programs to constantly take in arbitrary input & output information in the background, as well as simulate arbitrary input to other programs, is an obvious and glaring security flaw. U…
> Unfortunately, that forbids general-purpose screenshotting and key-rebinding programs - but there is no sensible middle ground.
Unfortunately, this makes it unusable for 98% of the population. Wayland also breaks screen sharing programs, which are essential for most, especially now during COVID.
Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?
#510Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which one?
Perhaps Amethyst[1] or yabai[2]. You can also write your own with Hammerspoon[3]. [1] https://github.com/ianyh/Amethyst [2] https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai [3] https://github.com/Hammerspoon/hammerspoon
Yabai is the one I was using.