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The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

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Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#461

Post by emersion »

bigbubba wrote: post #298
solarkraft wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wayland is really slow. I think you don't mean that the Wayland protocol forces slowness but that the compositor you used was slow. The one I use is fast. > And if you don't like the window decorations (say, they take up too much screen space) your choices are suck it up, or if you're lucky and willing to spend a bunch of time reconfigure every different toolkit your apps use. No, there are protocols to negotiate w…

> The [compositor] I use is fast. [...] I've been happy with a wlroots based one (Wayfire) for a few months wlroots performed very poorly on my i5-3427U with 4000 series iGPU. Very poorly. I ended up using neither X nor Wayland and instead having mpv render straight to the frame buffer (--vo=gpu --gpu-context=drm)

I'm a wlroots developer, and I'm using an old Sandybridge mobile i5 CPU daily. So I'm pretty surprised about this. I'd be interested in a bug report if you were to try again.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#462

Post by horsawlarway »

bitwize wrote: post #444
WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #422

What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: 1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of 2) that new thing which doesn't work in so many cases it's laughable, even after 11 years. How many years was it between the concept of X and a working release at Palo Alto? Note that the new situation is so perfect for passing the buck from the windowing system to the compositors, an…

> What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: I call systems like this CADT-compliant after Jamie Zawinski's Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers idea. Wayland is a system for which CADT-compliance (and maybe security) trumps nearly all other concerns. No surprise, the primary use case for Wayland is and was always GNOME -- the very system for which Zawinski coined CADT.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X.

On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac.

To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or output devices a single time using Arch/GDE/Wayland.

Honestly, I'd probably still be running linux in a VM on my laptop if it weren't for Wayland.

If X is your opinion of "stable and working" then I don't want any part of your systems.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#463

Post by shrimp_emoji »

pferde wrote: post #193
s1k3s wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you're trying to use it for but I've been on Mint for the past 4 years and I've had no problem with it, other than the fact that every time I turn on the computer I have to run a shell script that fixes my resolution. I'm using it for development, I also have a personal Mac and my work PC is Windows and I can say the Linux is miles ahead of both of them. And the Mac and Windows computers have been $1500…

Following is just an anecdote, I am aware that I may not be a representative sample, so read accordingly. My current desktop PC has been on Debian (mostly Stable, sometimes Testing) for about fifteen years now, and apart from some minor bug here and there, everything works. Including gaming (Steam, as well as some standalone games), work, software development, multimedia. From where I'm standing, I find Linux desktop…

And Debian is ironically hard mode! Packages are so outdated and Debian is so unfriendly and clunky. Like a worse Ubuntu.

IME, Manjaro/Arch unironically provide a better, less buggy experience. Maybe the bugfixes come in faster than the bugs and the devs pay most of their attention to current versions.

And more anecdata: I wouldn't say scripts to fix your resolution are "common" pains on Linux. (Though crashes on Cinnamon are ;p -- stick to KDE or GNOME if you want polish.) The closest I've come to that lately was having to reset the sound daemon due to a Manjaro bug, but that's the only thing in two years I've had to do. Meanwhile, on Windows, the internet dies when I turn my VPN off (the same VPN I use on Linux, at that). And, for that, the scriptable solution's more elusive. "Reinstall and pray" is the only way to go.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#464

Post by emersion »

remexre wrote: post #297

I'm kinda annoyed this is the case before the GBM/EGLStreams argument got resolved... I've done some programming against GBM directly (wanted an OpenGL ES application to be in a "kiosk mode," didn't want to have to install X / a Wayland compositor + configure it), and the whole DRM+GBM stack is kinda _terrible_. Generously, one could call it barely documented; the majority of the useful and correct documentation I fo…

Yeah, the KMS docs need some love. I'm trying to help with that. But note that even with EGLStreams you'd still be using KMS. And GBM's API is pretty small, basically just gbm_bo_import/gbm_bo_create/gbm_bo_get_*.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#466

Post by horsawlarway »

snazz wrote: post #196
dralley wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

standards.xkcd

I don't think we'll ever get into that situation. Mir is gone now and Arcan is a pretty niche solution, so I think that Wayland will continue replacing X.org unabated now.

And honestly, it's doing a decent job.

Happy to see Ubuntu make the switch, it'll pull in a good number of daily users and we can iron out the last few remaining issues.

Frankly, Wayland has been excellent to me. It's hard to describe how nice it is that I can't remember the last time I had to open an xorg conf file to try to get monitors working, or get even basic functionality from my touchpad.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#467

Post by horsawlarway »

boudin wrote: post #21
est31 wrote: post #7

Today I've updated to the newest Kubuntu release 20.10 and considered switching to Wayland, but then abandoned the idea when I found out that middle click copy paste is only implemented in Plasma 5.20, and I only have Plasma 5.19. I've seen they've fixed the screenshot program though (which I remember to have been an issue on older versions). I'm looking forward to 21.04 for my next attempt to switch, maybe by then F…

Firefox native support is pretty much here already (I've been using it for quite a time now and it works really well). The only missing piece that is not merged yet is screen sharing unfortunately. It's available on Fedora's Firefox build. All GTK3 apps runs well on Wayland too. Qt apps runs well but it doesn't feel as polished (I mainly have issues when I use 2 screen with different scaling). The last big things are…

Yup, I've been running the ozone AUR release of chromium for a while, and outside of a couple remaining rough spots (mainly menus used for extension development/debugging) it's been great.

I run a 4k display and a 1920x1080 display side by side, and X is utter garbage at handling it.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#468

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

horsawlarway wrote: post #462
bitwize wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: I call systems like this CADT-compliant after Jamie Zawinski's Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers idea. Wayland is a system for which CADT-compliance (and maybe security) trumps nearly all other concerns. No surprise, the primary use case for Wayland is and was always GNOME -- the very system for which Zawinski coined CADT.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

Cannot say Wayland works smoothly on my triple-monitor setup. One of the monitors sometimes stops working randomly, and wakes up to display Plymouth screen when I reboot the thing.

Dell Precision 7520 with an AMD GPU. The degree of flakiness is different depending on whether you're on Plasma or GNOME, but it's there nonetheless.

Re: The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

#469

Post by copperx »

horsawlarway wrote: post #462
bitwize wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What looks like "typical Linux geeks being geeks" with this situation: I call systems like this CADT-compliant after Jamie Zawinski's Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers idea. Wayland is a system for which CADT-compliance (and maybe security) trumps nearly all other concerns. No surprise, the primary use case for Wayland is and was always GNOME -- the very system for which Zawinski coined CADT.

I mean... having used both X and Wayland as daily drivers, you're fucking insane if you think you can EVER get me back on X. On Wayland I get excellent multi-monitor support (mixed scaling ratios, much better automatic detection and configuration, much better plug-and-play). I also have a touchpad on my XPS that feels just as good as a Mac. To boot, I haven't had to touch a config file related to input devices or out…

You need to purchase an AMD graphics card for Wayland, though.
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