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Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

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Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#211

Post by edoceo »

chaps wrote: post #208
sebmellen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my response to the grandparent comment for more details. > When was it taken? We currently verify this by including the last Bitcoin block hash in the photo, giving us a ~10 minute time window in which the photo was taken. Also, the whole handoff period is under 20 minutes, so the transporter only has access to the cars for 20 minutes (with many others around), before a timestamp is required. > Who was taking the…

Your company sounds pretty awful to work for, where suggestions like, "Watch the employees at all times" are apparently taken seriously. Had an interview for a company like that once, where they required that no work-related communication happen outside of their chat client. And they had cameras to check for that. The turnaround rate was through the roof. I genuinely hope that you'll try and solve these problems usin…

They're only making their clients employees lives hell.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#212

Post by sebmellen »

Spivak wrote: post #201
sebmellen wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please see my comment in response to the grandparent comment. I think it will address your concerns with a rational counterargument. Basically, yes, you could, in theory, maybe, sort of, possibly, build a similar system without a public blockchain. But why? I'm sure there are people who can build houses with a few hand tools, but there's a reason we have power tools and heavy machinery — they are more efficient and f…

I think the thing that you have to answer is why you need distributed consensus. You're a startup with a business relationship with your customers -- you're the common trusted party. Your customers are using your software so if they were worried about you cheating the system they (and you) have bigger problems since your business is reputation. Also what is the point of mining or and proof of $whatever system? The th…

You're right about everything but that we're the common trusted party. We have a relationship with the receiver. They want to be sure nothing happens in transit from origin. We do not have a business relationship with the transporters (many of whom are independent).

The way the transporters know they're getting a fair deal is precisely because we are not the source of truth — a database outside of our control is (a blockchain, in this case).

We're not voting on what is true, we're relying on the blockchain as an immutable representation of state. An append-only, distributed database that we do not control.

And please don't downvote my comments out of a misunderstanding. That's juvenile.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#213

Post by ReactiveJelly »

sebmellen wrote: post #34
captn3m0 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A GitHub repository would provide the same level of guarantees right? Everyone else gets read access - the transporter gets write access. They can't rewrite history, or else it gets caught on a mirror that anyone else is maintaining. Certificate Transparency gets the same guarantees as well, without using a blockchain.

No... I'm not sure where people get the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does. The biggest hiccup with this proposal is that whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions. This is not the case on a public blockchain. With the solution you describe, we would basically be running our own psuedo-private blockchain, with no advantages over…

> the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does.

Because Git is a Merkle DAG and blockchain is a Merkle chain. (I think that's the word)

So, although it would be ugly, you could store data in Git as a linear series of commits and get the same public or private ledger.

> whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions

But if your clients who don't trust you are monitoring the repo, and you do something like a `push --force`, they would see the hashes change.

> But we use a public blockchain for a reason.

I've tried to guess the reasons:

1. If the public ledger is watched by 100 other people, it's much harder to roll back an event than if it's only watched by a few clients who might not notice if you post an event and then immediately revoke it.

2. Since the public ledger gets a lot more traffic, its clock is more accurate. With a private ledger (Like the Git hack) you could still use the latest Bitcoin hash to prove "Commit B is made after Time A", but the window for "Commit B is made before Time C" is very large.

Honestly, my problem with blockchain is just the word "blockchain". I love public notarized ledgers. But I don't want to buy something that's riding off the hype of Bitcoin and buzzwords, and I don't want to sell that to people.

I need an audit log for something at work and I'm trying to figure out if this is useful. If it is, I would never tell my boss that someone called it blockchain. Non-programmers will think it's unbreakable Hollywood magic crypto.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#214

Post by sebmellen »

chaps wrote: post #208
sebmellen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my response to the grandparent comment for more details. > When was it taken? We currently verify this by including the last Bitcoin block hash in the photo, giving us a ~10 minute time window in which the photo was taken. Also, the whole handoff period is under 20 minutes, so the transporter only has access to the cars for 20 minutes (with many others around), before a timestamp is required. > Who was taking the…

Your company sounds pretty awful to work for, where suggestions like, "Watch the employees at all times" are apparently taken seriously. Had an interview for a company like that once, where they required that no work-related communication happen outside of their chat client. And they had cameras to check for that. The turnaround rate was through the roof. I genuinely hope that you'll try and solve these problems usin…

What?

We don't do any of what you describe. When I said "continuous video", I was referring to the transporter taking a video of the state of the car — two minutes max. No livestream or tracking or anything.

I don't watch or control my employees or the transporters (they are just a client of a client). I don't even see the pictures they take before transport, usually just our customer.

It feels like you're wilfully misunderstanding something.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#215

Post by sebmellen »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #213
sebmellen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... I'm not sure where people get the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does. The biggest hiccup with this proposal is that whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions. This is not the case on a public blockchain. With the solution you describe, we would basically be running our own psuedo-private blockchain, with no advantages over…

> the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does. Because Git is a Merkle DAG and blockchain is a Merkle chain. (I think that's the word) So, although it would be ugly, you could store data in Git as a linear series of commits and get the same public or private ledger. > whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions But if your clients who…

I agree with you on the word blockchain. I hate it. I hate the crypto associations too.

How about we start calling real use cases PNL (Public Notarized Ledger) use cases? I love that term.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#216

Post by ReactiveJelly »

sebmellen wrote: post #215
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does. Because Git is a Merkle DAG and blockchain is a Merkle chain. (I think that's the word) So, although it would be ugly, you could store data in Git as a linear series of commits and get the same public or private ledger. > whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions But if your clients who…

I agree with you on the word blockchain. I hate it. I hate the crypto associations too. How about we start calling real use cases PNL (Public Notarized Ledger) use cases? I love that term.

Sure.

I'm also thinking, how do they trust my server?

With photographs it makes sense - A server that can tamper with photos live is not sci-fi, but it's also just a little bit expensive.

In my case I want to notarize text. What if I store "evil message" in my database and publish "good message" to the PNL?

Unless the end recipient of "evil message" is also logging to the PNL, (Which is hard, they're supposed to be a dumb client) nobody will ever contradict the server. I could round-trip the messages through the PNL. Make the recipient pull them from there instead of the server. But that sounds like extra risk.

It's a tricky problem, and in the end I'll have to cut lots of corners for convenience. That makes me sad.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#217

Post by sebmellen »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #216
sebmellen wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the word blockchain. I hate it. I hate the crypto associations too. How about we start calling real use cases PNL (Public Notarized Ledger) use cases? I love that term.

Sure. I'm also thinking, how do they trust my server? With photographs it makes sense - A server that can tamper with photos live is not sci-fi, but it's also just a little bit expensive. In my case I want to notarize text. What if I store "evil message" in my database and publish "good message" to the PNL? Unless the end recipient of "evil message" is also logging to the PNL, (Which is hard, they're supposed to be a…

I have to be honest — I don't really understand what you're trying to say.

RE: Timestamping text, check out https://app.assembl.net and open "Chronos". It should be self-explanatory to create a timestamp.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#218

Post by captn3m0 »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #213
sebmellen wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... I'm not sure where people get the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does. The biggest hiccup with this proposal is that whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions. This is not the case on a public blockchain. With the solution you describe, we would basically be running our own psuedo-private blockchain, with no advantages over…

> the idea that Git provides what a blockchain does. Because Git is a Merkle DAG and blockchain is a Merkle chain. (I think that's the word) So, although it would be ugly, you could store data in Git as a linear series of commits and get the same public or private ledger. > whoever is provisioning the Git repository (most likely us) would also have the ability to change read/write permissions But if your clients who…

As an addendum to the idea, perhaps have the git commits signed via a public timestamping server. (ie to say, any commits that do not have a corresponding timestamped signature will not be accepted).

As CT shows, there are other ways to solve the audit-logging-for-untrusted-parties problem.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#219

Post by tomcam »

alex_young wrote: post #154

All the timestamp implementations seem oddly complicated for an append only filesystem. We’ve had write once media for thousands of years haven’t we?

We have, and that is the basis of our startup hyperTablet (YC W21). We preserve long-lasting transactions using lasers on microscopically thin wafers of purified porcelain, basing it on a recipe from early Mesopotamia; cuneiform tablets have been a high resolution medium with MTBF estimated at 10,000 years. The base clay is ethically sourced using only well educated, adult laborers 21 and older. It is then refined using processes first developed by the French military.

Obviously the market is primarily enterprise, legal, and insurance companies. We hope to get the cost per transaction (CPT) under €100 sometime in the next five years. Early adoption has still been surprisingly strong, surpassing projections by about 40% per year compounded.

Re: Ask HN: What are real-life useful use-cases for blockchain (not currencies)?

#220

Post by lironmo »

Blockchain technology has made headlines mainly due to the interest and attention that Bitcoin, the pioneer of digital currencies, is based on it.

The technology enables registration and tracking of the money in the system, including balances and transactions, for all users of the system at the same time. It is important to understand that if until recently the prevailing explanation was that blockchain technology has a right to exist only because of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies based on it, then the picture is much more rosy in terms of technology - it seems to accompany us in various walks of life.

Along with voices claiming that many resources are invested in the development of blockchain technology without the certainty that this technology will survive over time, there are many other voices heard across the globe, arguing that using blockchain technology is bringing the future to us and taking part in a revolution that will change our lives significantly .

Blockchain for food, real estate and health Thus, alongside cryptocurrencies, new uses for blockchain technology are currently being developed in various industries.

In the US, Walmart, the giant retail chain, has filed a patent application based on the use of blockchain technology that will allow the company to improve tracking of shipments in various aspects, including: location, temperature and delivery content. Sensitivity of some of the products shipped.

Other food giants, such as Nestle, Kroger and other companies in the food industry, have partnered with computing giant IBM to develop use of a blockchain system to improve food tracking.

The applications in the world also slide into the field of real estate and digital health, where developments leading to change have recently been presented, mainly in the way in which medical information will pass between the various factors.

In Israel, there are a number of companies, in various industries, that are looking to develop services and products based on blockchain technology -

Wave is developing a system that will make it possible to transfer and confirm bills of lading digitally, thus overcoming the need to bring the original document from the bank to the shipping company, as required today (a wider move is currently being made by IBM and logistics and shipping giant Marsk). Maritime trade).

QED-IT is developing a system that allows a claim to be tested in a database without revealing the content of the information itself. This allows the defense industry, for example, to test components without knowing their specific use.

BloxTax is developing a system that allows anyone to know exactly how much they have earned or lost on tokens or cryptocurrencies and to report to the tax authorities in accordance with the law, by collecting and weighting the data from the blockchain network.

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