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A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

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Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#61

Post by peter422 »

ffdjjjffjj wrote: post #46
benjaminsuch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually in the same spot but for a tech startup. But the founders are very nice and have a lot of good will. I'm working 12-14 hours every day because I want and I have fun doing the work. But even though I'm getting a lot less salary than I could have, I decided to keep grinding because I see way more opportunities and chances than my "personal loss". Imo, everyone working his ass off in a startup should make s…

This post reminds me of a younger me. The experience I got working hours like this at jobs like this was not as good as I thought. It was shallow and rushed, every cuttable corner was cut. And ultimately, it wasn’t worth it. You may not care about money now, but you will in 5 years when your friends are buying houses and your $5m ticket never got punched. Just my advice feel free to ignore. I probably would have!

And the double penalty is that if your resume showed 2 years at a large, prestigious company, it will always count more than 2 years where you did a Herculean job at a small startup.

But everybody should choose the path they want.

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#62

Post by abhinav22 »

research_pie wrote: post #48
abhinav22 wrote: post #33

I am a mid-senior level employee at a non-tech semi startup. It sucks. The founder wants everybody to work at his pace, and since he’s your boss, you have to mostly. There isn’t much growth for pay increases or promotions since it’s not a large company, and job security isn’t the best because it’s a semi startup. And since the founder is paying you directly from his pockets, he really wants to extract a full pound of…

Man, sorry for that it seems that you got into a toxic startup culture. My startup was a bit like this 10 months ago, the other founders were all about making sacrifices and working 999h per week. However, nothing was working out properly. I've made some drastic change to our culture to be more empathic, transparent and based on trust. Since then its way more enjoyable for everyone and we are way more productive. Sal…

That sounds like a great set of initiatives. But there is part selection bias for those posting on HN, they are probably on the nicer and more logical end of the spectrum.

I’m not in a place to make decisions, so unfortunately can’t change the culture from within. The founder isn’t a bad guy, I just know he’s going to screw me in the end, so overworking for him doesn’t make sense for me.

For me it sucked that I was lied to in the interview (if I had known that two of the senior members left, I would never join), but once you are roped in, it’s not that easy to get out.

That said, I don’t think my experience is particularly unique — honestly I think finding a good company is more rare than working for a bad one, but when we are in good roles (like I was in previous jobs), we do assume we can always be in good situations.

Pandemic didn’t help - worst time to be an employee looking for a change!

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#63

Post by abhinav22 »

ffdjjjffjj wrote: post #46
benjaminsuch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually in the same spot but for a tech startup. But the founders are very nice and have a lot of good will. I'm working 12-14 hours every day because I want and I have fun doing the work. But even though I'm getting a lot less salary than I could have, I decided to keep grinding because I see way more opportunities and chances than my "personal loss". Imo, everyone working his ass off in a startup should make s…

This post reminds me of a younger me. The experience I got working hours like this at jobs like this was not as good as I thought. It was shallow and rushed, every cuttable corner was cut. And ultimately, it wasn’t worth it. You may not care about money now, but you will in 5 years when your friends are buying houses and your $5m ticket never got punched. Just my advice feel free to ignore. I probably would have!

Yep, same here. I gave away my 20s for great experience but not as much pay I think I should have gotten and now I’m not as comfortable as I would like myself as a mid 30s worker.

There are always good and bad cases of course - I’m hopeful that the parent of your post is a good case (we should always be optimistic!), so it’s not to bring him down but rather just share other experiences.

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#64

Post by abhinav22 »

yowlingcat wrote: post #42
abhinav22 wrote: post #33

I am a mid-senior level employee at a non-tech semi startup. It sucks. The founder wants everybody to work at his pace, and since he’s your boss, you have to mostly. There isn’t much growth for pay increases or promotions since it’s not a large company, and job security isn’t the best because it’s a semi startup. And since the founder is paying you directly from his pockets, he really wants to extract a full pound of…

> Some people may come back and say not to join such companies but pick wiser, but the harsh reality is that most of these startups founders are narcissistic and would sell you out for a dollar. That may be the case but there is a world of difference between what you are describing and every hypergrowth Series B+ company with reputable top tier VCs I've worked at. Maybe part of the problem is the "non-tech semi start…

Agree that the labor market affects it a lot. Since I’m not in a “core” field for the company, I end up doing a lot more and getting a lot less than others who are more core to the company due to their positions (even if work wise, I basically do half their jobs already).

Reputable VC backing would definitely be a positive signal for a better working environment — the big backers know that time and some amount of money (not wasting it) is required to build a startup up. They are also in a position to coach owners to treat their employees as assets not an expense

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#65

Post by abhinav22 »

sokoloff wrote: post #45
abhinav22 wrote: post #33

I am a mid-senior level employee at a non-tech semi startup. It sucks. The founder wants everybody to work at his pace, and since he’s your boss, you have to mostly. There isn’t much growth for pay increases or promotions since it’s not a large company, and job security isn’t the best because it’s a semi startup. And since the founder is paying you directly from his pockets, he really wants to extract a full pound of…

The pandemic has changed job searching, but in some ways for the better. Your former co-workers are just as likely to hire you as before. Many companies are announcing they’re remote-friendly or remote-first, and some of them have no idea what to do next. Imagine the pandemic has 1-2 more years to run. Don’t let that delay lull you into forfeiting two more years of your short (work and non-work) life.

Yep. My ex boss is starting up an office here, hopefully her company will allow her to expand and hire me.

For me, I’m a bit stuck in a niche field in a niche region (don’t want to disclose too much in the rare case my boss reads), so it’s quite difficult to move around. Also as I’m no longer young, my salary is a bit higher than for young 20s so it’s not that easy to move into other adjacent fields. But the expenses are higher - with a partner and bills to support. Now I know what it feels like to get older!

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#66

Post by benjaminsuch »

ffdjjjffjj wrote: post #46
benjaminsuch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually in the same spot but for a tech startup. But the founders are very nice and have a lot of good will. I'm working 12-14 hours every day because I want and I have fun doing the work. But even though I'm getting a lot less salary than I could have, I decided to keep grinding because I see way more opportunities and chances than my "personal loss". Imo, everyone working his ass off in a startup should make s…

This post reminds me of a younger me. The experience I got working hours like this at jobs like this was not as good as I thought. It was shallow and rushed, every cuttable corner was cut. And ultimately, it wasn’t worth it. You may not care about money now, but you will in 5 years when your friends are buying houses and your $5m ticket never got punched. Just my advice feel free to ignore. I probably would have!

What I wanted to say is, to not only see the "bad" side, but also try to look for chances. But that is something that one has to do by him-/herself and then you have to evaluate if it's worth.

I think the "blindness" here can be on both sides, but I definitely don't want to suggest to "blindly" endure the workload for little pay.

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#67

Post by jlokier »

juskrey wrote: post #56
jlokier wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or even eating into them I can confirm :/ Worked at a startup as an employee, made a significant financial loss, living on savings and eventually credit, because cost of living was higher than income. Eventually had to stop. This happened gradually as I just couldn't keep up the work. Employer was annoyed with me for not doing more work. I kept telling them I had to do other work because their pay didn't cover my e…

You think those people would have honored you if things have gone much better? I doubt. Typical toxic client. Nothing to do with business risk

I've had toxic clients. This was not a toxic client.

I knew exactly how much was in the business bank account. There were no secrets about the state of the business. I knew how it had arrived at the state it did as well, and its development and investment history.

The developer I was replacing had just died, before the product was ready. He was a good friend.

I could either take it on and try to make it work or not.

They weren't underpaying due to failure to value me. They were underpaying because we mutually agreed the project was worth it, and there was the pot of money that there was.

So I took on that risk on full knowledge as (replacement) employee #1. Yes, that's a business risk.

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#68

Post by simonh »

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #31
juskrey wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is none of the employee's business to assess founder's risk exposure, he/she does not not lend money to them, but takes away from instead. By taking an employee founder is effectively paying monthly, mind that, very expensive, insurance which provides free hands at any moment when needed. Employee's benefit is immediate, unconditional and guaranteed. The opposite of being an owner of business.

The employee doesn't take money. The employee gives away life itself, measured in hours, in exchange for money. Do not trivialize this exchange. All of the value of the company comes from the bottom. The money that the shareholders put in is just a bet. SOMETHING has to back up that money, and that's what the employees are for: to help the investors win that bet. Don't say "I'm taking all the risk over here" because…

So the life an employee gives us what matters, sure, but where did the capital come from that is ‘just a bet’? That money comes from blood sweat and tears too, it comes from work as well. It represents hopes, dreams and aspirations sunk into earning it. That’s what money is. It had to be earned by someone too, just as much as the salary of an employee at a startup. This is what naive Socialist economic analysis misses.

Re: A conversation with Shel Kaphan, Amazon’s first employee (2016)

#70

Post by jacobwilliamroy »

simonh wrote: post #68
jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employee doesn't take money. The employee gives away life itself, measured in hours, in exchange for money. Do not trivialize this exchange. All of the value of the company comes from the bottom. The money that the shareholders put in is just a bet. SOMETHING has to back up that money, and that's what the employees are for: to help the investors win that bet. Don't say "I'm taking all the risk over here" because…

So the life an employee gives us what matters, sure, but where did the capital come from that is ‘just a bet’? That money comes from blood sweat and tears too, it comes from work as well. It represents hopes, dreams and aspirations sunk into earning it. That’s what money is. It had to be earned by someone too, just as much as the salary of an employee at a startup. This is what naive Socialist economic analysis misse…

If you work for money, you're poor and you'll always be poor. Real money doesn't come from work, it comes from money. So you can keep fantasizing about a meritocracy. I'll be over here brokering mortgages and managing properties making six figures in a 20 hour workweek using nothing but a laptop and a mobile phone. Out here in the real world, money is just a dream. Nothing more.
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