Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status • Hacker News Board

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#181

Post by clairity » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:49 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #109

paulsutter wrote: post #84

Folks in the status professions (banking, law,..) often tell me they want to become an entrepreneur. I always tell them, you wont do it. They attended the right school, joined the right firm, attained that corner office. As a founder they would give up all that, and their family and friends will tell them that they've made a massive mistake, for years, while it appears that nothing is happening. Then they sheepishly…

This reminds me of the book "Excellent Sheep" that spoke to the point that much of elite schools is about chasing status. I couldn't find the exact number, but an absurd percentage of graduates go into a select few high prestige career choices, namely finance, consulting, law, and medicine. The point being students are optimizing for high status. To paraphrase an interaction from the book about entertaining different…

> “...the point that much of elite schools is about chasing status.”

it’s important to note that everyone is chasing status, and that status is (highly) multidimensional, so we can all have it along different dimensions. i’d go so far as to posit that status has more degrees of freedom than the number of people. it isn’t zero-sum by any means. “high-status schools” is just one of those dimensions, perhaps one that’s more visible than others.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#182

Post by BossingAround » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

carlmr wrote: post #178

lhorie wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does entrepreneurship have to be a 80 hour week full time all-or-nothing commitment? What of those passive income advocates that talk about slowly building revenue streams on the side?

I think that's a different goal, they want to be quasi unemployed with money, surfing at the beach in Bali.

I'd love to have a passive income so that I can worry less about my expenses while having a regular 9-5 job that I already have.

Sounds like a stereotype to me; many people would love to have passive income for many different reasons I'm sure.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#183

Post by mgolawala » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #164

mgolawala wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend once refer to it as “funemployed”. I loved the term, though I still prefer to refer to intentional and willful breaks from employment as sabbaticals.

Sabbatical implies you are working on something else though, so seems to me quite different than "funemployed".

I didn't realize there was that connotation.

If that is the case, funemployed would be the more appropriate term.

To me sabbatical meant, taking time off to focus on oneself or ones own pursuits, however I didn't realize there was a work or growth related connotation to the word.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#184

Post by shostack » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

mgolawala wrote: post #144

K0balt wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer "gainfully unemployed" or "willfully unemployable". Those are the labels I have become comfortable with.

I had a friend once refer to it as “funemployed”. I loved the term, though I still prefer to refer to intentional and willful breaks from employment as sabbaticals.

The term is interesting. In some circles it seems to have a message of "yes the economy sucks but I'm not worried about being unemployed because I'm in a stable enough situation for some amount of runway/indefinitely, so please don't stress yourself by worrying about me."

It's a privileged term to use in some ways because of the so very many in dire financial situations right now. But among friends or family or certain situations, it has its uses.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#185

Post by justin66 » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

paulsutter wrote: post #84

Folks in the status professions (banking, law,..) often tell me they want to become an entrepreneur. I always tell them, you wont do it. They attended the right school, joined the right firm, attained that corner office. As a founder they would give up all that, and their family and friends will tell them that they've made a massive mistake, for years, while it appears that nothing is happening. Then they sheepishly…

> Folks in the status professions (banking, law,..) often tell me they want to become an entrepreneur. I always tell them, you wont do it. They attended the right school, joined the right firm, attained that corner office. As a founder they would give up all that, and their family and friends will tell them that they've made a massive mistake, for years, while it appears that nothing is happening.

> Then they sheepishly admit that this is true.

That might be less about agreement and more about politely getting the guy who's being deliberately discouraging to shut up.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#186

Post by scythe » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

User23 wrote: post #160

gonehome wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably a lot of people are driven to be entrepreneurs because of the status. The issue with the bankers is that they’re trapped in a local maximum. A successful entrepreneur is probably the highest status role possible in modern society (think Zuckerberg, Bezos, Gates) maybe even rivaling POTUS. I don’t buy that entrepreneurs are not interested in status, they’re just making a longer term status play (and taking on…

> A successful entrepreneur is probably the highest status role possible in modern society (think Zuckerberg, Bezos, Gates) maybe even rivaling POTUS. Not even close. Regardless of the high esteem we may hold them in, the average person just sees them that you list as rich dorks. Compare and contrast with say Brad Pitt or Leonardo DiCaprio who, to use a stock phrase, men want to be and women want to be with.

>the average person just sees them that you list as rich dorks.

gp has only listed tech entrepreneurs. Shocking as it may seem to us, the tech industry doesn't have a stellar reputation in some parts of the US/world. However we also have e.g. Donald Trump who ran on his identity as a "businessman" (however farcical), Elon Musk, or Oprah ( http://blackeconomics.co.uk/wp/oprahs-empire/ ), all appealing to different sorts of people, but their business acumen is not unnoticed nor unmentioned in each case.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#187

Post by gwbas1c » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

thom wrote: post #45

I'm struggling to see the link between status and working on something obscure. Working on something you like (or even having a choice of things to work on at all), even if it's something others find trivial or pointless, still seems like a privilege.

I interpreted this to mean that someone toiling through the ranks of an organization "keeping the lights on" is more likely to be successful that someone who specifically tries to get a leadership role in an organization.

Or, someone who enters politics by joining local committees, volunteering to help other candidates, and maybe running for an "insignificant" office will have more success than someone who enters politics by running for mayor, governor, or president as their first endeavor.

But, more specifically, I interpret "looking like they're working on something silly or insignificant" to basically mean finding tasks that are critical for the survival of the organization; but might not come with the prestige of a leadership title.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#188

Post by chansiky » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

A lot of people simply can't handle the cognitive dissonance that pangs the mind when they are lower status than they were before. Cognitive dissonance creates undue mental stress until resolved. If one can't resolve it by deflating their ego, then the dissonance between reality and one's self perception won't allow them to stay in a position of low status for very long. Thus they get stuck in relative peaks, unable to descend from their high position, to start fresh from a point that allows them to climb the right peak.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#189

Post by bumby » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #181

bumby wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the book "Excellent Sheep" that spoke to the point that much of elite schools is about chasing status. I couldn't find the exact number, but an absurd percentage of graduates go into a select few high prestige career choices, namely finance, consulting, law, and medicine. The point being students are optimizing for high status. To paraphrase an interaction from the book about entertaining different…

> “...the point that much of elite schools is about chasing status.” it’s important to note that everyone is chasing status, and that status is (highly) multidimensional, so we can all have it along different dimensions. i’d go so far as to posit that status has more degrees of freedom than the number of people. it isn’t zero-sum by any means. “high-status schools” is just one of those dimensions, perhaps one that’s…

>it’s important to note that everyone is chasing status

While I do think that is the general rule since humans are social animals, I'm curious as to why you don't think there are exceptions. By definition, to chase status means to pursue things that society values. It seems to me there are certain people who do not chase such things because they have value systems that don't align with the society they are a part of. Perhaps I can agree if we lax the assumption on what defines a society. If your family or a church is sufficient as a "society" I could agree, but I was using a larger definition to include people one wouldn't know on a personal level.

>status has more degrees of freedom than the number of people.

I don't know if I'd go this far. Status is by definition relative social standing and thus defined by the society at large. It can be relative between cultures (some societies may give teachers more status than lawyers and vice versa) but it can't really be relative within a culture and still meet that definition of aggregate consensus. Naturally, within cultures some dimensions will be more valued than others as the ones that give prestige.

Re: Underrated predictor of success: willingness to be low-status

#190

Post by rgbrenner » Fri, Oct 23, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #7

The more-correct observation is that any well-understood or easy path to becoming high status will be shut down. Most people are not high status, and want to be. It follows that the path has to be either risky, or difficult to comprehend. If hard work were enough, we'd all be in charge. Lots of hard workers out there.

It follows that the path has to be either risky, or difficult to comprehend.

Risky and difficult to comprehend are two forms of "barriers to entry". Another is who you know. One of the most obvious that you left out is: cost.

People buying their way into Harvard et al will obtain high status. People becoming a doctor will obtain high status. It's just that those things cost a 200k+. The price alone closes off that route to most people.

Risky and difficult are the routes to high status that less fortunate people MUST take, because the barriers for less risky routes are impossible to overcome by most people.

The important part you're highlighting is true: status requires barriers to limit the number of people that can acquire that status... it's just more broad than you've acknowledged.