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California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

reuters.com

271–280 of 423 posts

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#271

As a retired programmer who drives Lyft/Uber, it's always interesting to hear my liberal programmer friends take the side of the "working class" drivers against the Big Brother-ish Big Tech companies. I might have been one of them in the past. I'll probably be one of them in the future when self-driving cars replace drivers. But for now... Most of the drivers who don't make enough money are bad at their job. Californ…

Here is my problem with it (and I am generally in support of models of work that depend less on strict employer-employee relationships).

First, tailoring these rules for people like yourself who are retired (and presumably drive some on the side for fun / a bit of extra cash) has a similar effect to treating fast food jobs as being for teenagers working on the side when they go to school. It is both unrealistic, because most people doing those jobs use them as their primary sources of income, and encourages an attitude that they're not "real" jobs so they don't require this kind or protection.

Second and probably more relevant, the entire framework that governs relationships between either contractors and their customers / suppliers vs employees and their employers assumes that you are one or the other. For instance, in California, everyone gets a minimum of three days sick leave. That could have been setup to leave employers out of it and directly pay out something that has been deemed a social good from general taxation. The way it has been setup is that employers have to provide it. Those are basically the same (since society collectively pays for it either way) as long as everyone is an employee either directly or for a subcontractor.

A society decides that they want to assure certain things because they want them for themselves and each other or because they have decided that it is utility maximise to share everyone's downside risks. [I know that's not how most people think but it does provide a strong theoretical argument against self-insurance]. In the system currently operating in California, and indeed in most of those parts of the world where these protections have been agreed, the way we deliver them administratively is through mandates on employers. That's why we think of them as employment rights.

The problem then with the "gig economy" is that our system is not setup to deliver these minimum rights that we've agreed on as anything other than employment rights. So if we want to keep them, we can either:

-Radically transform the system in order to reach a "new settlement" where any rights we collectively want to be assured are handled by the state directly, and let the gig economy do whatever (since all work relationships will be effectively on the same terms regardless of whether they are "jobs" or not). That would mean barely any "employment rights" because if there was something we collectively wanted to safeguard we would collectively pay for it directly.

-Restrict what kind of work task we allow to be delivered without it becoming a "job" in the legal sense.

I would prefer option 1 but I am also a pragmatist and my second preference if we don't do that is to force certain relationships to be classified as employment in order to ensure that what we call "employment rights" are safeguarded.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been looking for my copy of the LA Times article on this and have yet to find it. So allow me to recount from my not necessarily trusty memory. During an investigation of the impact of term limits on the California the times talked with former "long term" members of both the Assembly and the Senate. In that discussion the people who had served for longer terms felt that you needed the time to understand what mad…

> They found that the time clock on legislators terms made them more eager for "easy wins" rather than tacking complex problems. This was especially true of legislators who were hoping to jump into national politics. Ah that actually makes a lot of sense to me. I did not actually consider that when you mentioned experience - a newer politician certainly has more pressure to put points on the board and it follows that…

> a newer politician certainly has more pressure to put points on the board and it follows that they may introduce "buggy" laws.

cf new developers who are under pressure to get commits into the codebase and will end up making mistakes as a consequence.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a term limit of, say, 10 years, enough time to "get the feel for good laws"?

Often this feel is based on past mistakes made. In this case a mistake would be a well intended law overturned by the courts. Intuitively I feel like mistakes would be repeated on a longer time scale. So someone who remembers what we did 15 years ago would say “let’s not waste time on this, it hasn’t worked in the past”. You can still learn with 10 year term limits but then you’re doomed to repeat the same mistakes e…

> you’re doomed to repeat the same mistakes every 10 years

That assumes 1) that every term expires at the same time, and 2) no-one ever documents anything...

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#274

Lets say I have a club I own, but I need to keep the riff raff out. I cant openly ban poor or low society people from entering which would be considered "evil". But what if I mandated every service from a staff must be tipped with atleast 100$, because we value our workers more here. This achieves the same purpose and I get to pretend to be egalitarian. If this law is passed, ride sharing apps will still exist. They…

You seem to be suggesting that some people don't deserve full-time employment but should be allowed to carry out the same kind of work under worse conditions because, otherwise, those people have no other options. Endorsing systematic exploitation like this is truly worrying. This gets even more problematic when these same hiring practices are normalized and exported to other industries where the same arguments are t…

Some people, in some jobs at least, aren't productive enough to support themselves. It's not about "deserve".

Some people have a lot of potential but need a chance to prove themselves and gain experience. Maybe they would start by bussing tables and eventually own their own restaurants. They need a ladder to success with rungs that are actually climbable.

If we mandate that you must be able to support a family of four and save for retirement to work bussing tables, we won't have prosperous people bussing tables. We'll just have more self-service restaurants, sit-down dining will become more of a luxury service, and we'll have more wait staff struggling because they have to have fewer tables that they have to bus themselves.

The training you yearn for can happen by virtue of the economics of the industry. It's like apprenticeship or interning. Except it's working at entry level jobs and earning advancement. And it's egalitarian because anybody can be an excellent busser. Not everyone can talk someone into funding their education on spec.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the bullet points you listed are not a sign of bad drivers. Even you, were you a taxi driver, wouldn't take a long drive out of town if you weren't paid for the trip back, for example. And yes, "my car my rules" because that is their car, and Uber imposes severe penalties for bad reviews.

"bad drivers" as in "not making money" drivers. When you go out of town you stay there and take rides or set your direction home and pick up rides in that direction. Drivers who say they don't get paid coming back are ignorant.

> When you go out of town you stay there

Stay as in? Spend the night? Just stay there on the curb side hoping for a chance that someone will need a ride back? How is that "making money"?

> or set your direction home and pick up rides in that direction

Drivers already do that. Additionally,

- A driver who lives west of town will not pick a ride to the east of town on the off chance that there will be a ride back if only he stays there long enough.

- A driver only needs to go home at the end of their shift. So why would he pick rides in the direction of his home at any other time? Hoping for a chance to pick a ride on the way back?

> Drivers who say they don't get paid coming back are ignorant.

As I've just demonstrated, it's not the drivers who are ignorant.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#276
post #240

Regardless of how you feel about AB5, you should vote No on Prop 22 for one reason: > Amending Proposition 22 would require a seven-eights (87.5%) vote in each chamber of the California State Legislature and the governor's signature, provided that the amendment is consistent with, and furthers the purpose of, Proposition 22. Changes that are not considered consistent with, and furthering the purpose of, Proposition 2…

This is an inaccurate take.

The default for an approved CA ballot initiative is that it cannot be amended or repealed by the state legislature. Normally changing a ballot initiative requires another ballot proposition, so an initiative permitting the legislature to make changes with a seven-eighths vote is actually more amenable to changes than normal, not less.

The California Constitution has a clause that enables initiatives to determine whether they can be changed by the state legislature.

You may argue that this is weird, but it's how ballot initiatives work in California, so this one isn't rewriting the democratic process.

https://ballotpedia.org/Legislative_alteration

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#277
post #38

I think Uber/lyft thought that self driving cars would arrive earlier than these regulations. Now they have to face a great difficulty to adapt to the new environment

It’s a little off topic, but today you can get a self driving ride in Las Vegas through the Lyft app. Two safety drivers sit up front though so it’s not driverless.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often this feel is based on past mistakes made. In this case a mistake would be a well intended law overturned by the courts. Intuitively I feel like mistakes would be repeated on a longer time scale. So someone who remembers what we did 15 years ago would say “let’s not waste time on this, it hasn’t worked in the past”. You can still learn with 10 year term limits but then you’re doomed to repeat the same mistakes e…

> you’re doomed to repeat the same mistakes every 10 years That assumes 1) that every term expires at the same time, and 2) no-one ever documents anything...

I'm guessing you're not in a support position.

2.a) no one ever reads the documentation.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#279
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>California has the curve ball of the proposition system. That is where special interest is most heavily felt. This court ruling is mostly meaningless. There is a proposition on the ballot that directly addresses this employment/independent contractor issue. It would supersede the legislature and make it nearly impossible for the legislature to repeal or amend the law. The prop also happens to have the most expensive…

On the other hand, California also created a bill that targets two companies specifically; kind of its own special interest if you will. We saw how quickly they started carving out exceptions once the original bill was passed and comedians couldn’t perform, and journalists started getting let go. Why not just pass the bill and call it the “Uber and Lyft must pay their drivers like employees and let them act like inde…

Yet many drivers do this full time. Why should ride share companies be excluded from worker protections that apply to other companies? Could Amazon convert to a gig-economy for warehouse workers where you sign up via an app?

There are certainly some folks who drive just a few hours a week and the companies like to highlight that by releasing stats like “% of drivers drive less then 5 hours”. I think “% of driver time by drivers over 35h/week” would paint a different picture and show just how much they rely on full time drivers.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#280
post #9

This has been an interesting battle in terms of civil governance. Basically Uber & Lyft threatened to put the initiative they wrote, on the ballot if the legislature passed AB5, which they did. Uber and Lyft are now doing everything they can to get it to pass which will set up its own court fight. Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" is it the Legislature/Governor or is it special…

> California didn't help itself when it implemented term limits which had the unpleasant side effect of never having any legislators with enough experience in the job to know how to really get things done. I've never understood this argument. Potential "yay" and "nay" votes are both term-limited, so the "inexperience" should cancel out? The fear of rocking the boat effects anyone that, well, will live longer. Whether…

Inexperience should "cancel out"? This mental model of how legislature is developed and then passed is probably the silliest I've ever heard. You should be more discerning of your thought processes.
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