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California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

reuters.com

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Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#251
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" The same people vote on the proposition who vote for the government. I don't like the things California tends to vote for but it is nothing short of enlightened to allow people a mechanism to directly overrule the legislature. If the people don't like the government's labour law, who are the government to object? I can't for the life of me see…

No... it's not this simple. The mechanism for overriding a government existing is one thing, but making it so easy to trigger for the most random things left and right is quite another. I'm not sure if you've seen the CA ballots, but casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person, partly due to the nuances involved in the topics (experts who've spent their lives studying these topics can easily disa…

> casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person

This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny!

Direct voting is strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the option your government/party/favourite expert recommends! After all, you already trust them (otherwise you wouldn’t have voted for them), so by “delegating” your vote to them, is equivalent to not having the popular vote in the first place!

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#252
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... it's not this simple. The mechanism for overriding a government existing is one thing, but making it so easy to trigger for the most random things left and right is quite another. I'm not sure if you've seen the CA ballots, but casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person, partly due to the nuances involved in the topics (experts who've spent their lives studying these topics can easily disa…

> casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny! Direct voting is strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the o…

> This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny!

> Direct voting s strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the option your government/party/favourite expert recommends! After all, you already trust them (otherwise you wouldn’t have voted for them), so by “delegating” your vote to them, is equivalent to not having the popular vote in the first place!

No, it very much stands up to "the most basic scrutiny". What it does not stand up to is a premature reply to an imagined argument that lacks a full understanding of the actual argument I was making. As I explained above: you might be in favor of an idea your party has, but you might also not want to bypass the legislature and lock the entire state into that decision. And you might not want your fellow citizens to lock you into a decision on that topic either. You might want to try out an idea but let the legislature improve things in the future. Or you might want to override the legislature temporarily, but allow them to change things after a few years have passed. You do not have this kind of flexibility with the current system. Voting with your party in favor of a measure bypassing and overriding your legislature is not the same thing as letting your party make that same decision in the legislature. It is far, far more risky and it ties the legislature's hands in the future.

There are also those who think the certain issues might deserve to be handled by a bipartisan legislature after a long period of consultation with experts, and not by a hasty party-line vote (or by popular vote). Though I guess the fact that this isn't even considered a possibility is itself rather telling.

Finally, the notion that anyone who hasn't sufficiently educated themselves on each topic to feel comfortable making a decision on it somehow "does not care enough" is a really juvenile way to look at this. As I (also) explained in my comment above, these issues can be complicated, with nontrivial, non-obvious implications. Experts (people who "care enough to educate themselves" on complicated topics) easily spend their entire careers working on some of these topics. And on top of that, many citizens simply cannot afford (financially or otherwise) to spend the days/weeks/months required to fully get to the bottom of each issue. That you prefer to regard everyone who doesn't come to complete confidence on every issue as lazy/ignorant/etc. does not make them so.

P.S. Your attempt at a trivial solution ("basic scrutiny"?) itself fails to account for the fact that people from the same party you like can appear on both sides of an issue. And it's also possible for your favorite party/representative not to have even made an endorsement.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#253
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" The same people vote on the proposition who vote for the government. I don't like the things California tends to vote for but it is nothing short of enlightened to allow people a mechanism to directly overrule the legislature. If the people don't like the government's labour law, who are the government to object? I can't for the life of me see…

To be fair only "workers" and employees should be able to vote on employment law then, no students no pensioners. This is why employment law needs to be take away from the states - have one federally defined set of laws - stops a race to the bottom.

> students

So because they are still learning to work, and because they need more time to learn to work, they shouldn't be allowed to vote on how to work? Madness.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#254
post #125
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think it should have played out? Laws were passed, special interests didn't like it and now there's a court battle. And immediately you say nothing can get passed that special interests oppose. California has the curve ball of the proposition system. Its not that hard to make it to the ballot with anything. It can be a little silly but it is what it is. How is this a term limits issue? What would you like…

>California has the curve ball of the proposition system. That is where special interest is most heavily felt. This court ruling is mostly meaningless. There is a proposition on the ballot that directly addresses this employment/independent contractor issue. It would supersede the legislature and make it nearly impossible for the legislature to repeal or amend the law. The prop also happens to have the most expensive…

On the other hand, California also created a bill that targets two companies specifically; kind of its own special interest if you will. We saw how quickly they started carving out exceptions once the original bill was passed and comedians couldn’t perform, and journalists started getting let go. Why not just pass the bill and call it the “Uber and Lyft must pay their drivers like employees and let them act like independent contractors too” bill? Because that’s really what it is.

Uber and Lyft will no doubt relocate and cease operations in California altogether if they can’t get around this. I guess the pandemic is a good time to do that since so many workers are remote, but there is no doubt in my mind that’s going to happen. The bill that was passed is an existential crises for them. The business model was intended for people to make some part time money. Like selling stuff on Etsy. It cant support paying drivers like they are salaried workers. Not many of them at least. It’s all around bad.

When states and the feds start regulating companies like this, it’s a prime example of the failures of our governments to provide for the people.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#255
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> casting an informed vote is quite arduous for the average person This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny! Direct voting is strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the o…

> This argument always comes up when discussing direct democracy or similar ideas, but it completely collapses under even the most basic scrutiny! > Direct voting s strictly better than delegated voting, because you can always ... wait for it ... delegate your vote! You don’t care enough about the issue to educate yourself? Simply cast the vote for the option your government/party/favourite expert recommends! After a…

What happens if noone votes?

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#256

Lets say I have a club I own, but I need to keep the riff raff out. I cant openly ban poor or low society people from entering which would be considered "evil". But what if I mandated every service from a staff must be tipped with atleast 100$, because we value our workers more here. This achieves the same purpose and I get to pretend to be egalitarian. If this law is passed, ride sharing apps will still exist. They…

No one is getting benefits. Not some special group of "worthy" drivers. No one.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#257
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" The same people vote on the proposition who vote for the government. I don't like the things California tends to vote for but it is nothing short of enlightened to allow people a mechanism to directly overrule the legislature. If the people don't like the government's labour law, who are the government to object? I can't for the life of me see…

To be fair only "workers" and employees should be able to vote on employment law then, no students no pensioners. This is why employment law needs to be take away from the states - have one federally defined set of laws - stops a race to the bottom.

Yea until the same problems just get applied everywhere instead of in one state only.

I prefer keeping many things at the state level. It’s much more difficult to be involved in government when you’re trying to vote in a pool of 350,000,000 people with different interests. Democracies lose effectiveness as population increases.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#258
post #9

This has been an interesting battle in terms of civil governance. Basically Uber & Lyft threatened to put the initiative they wrote, on the ballot if the legislature passed AB5, which they did. Uber and Lyft are now doing everything they can to get it to pass which will set up its own court fight. Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" is it the Legislature/Governor or is it special…

At the risk of sounding like a stereotypical leftist, I'm struggling to see how more of the blame can be on term limits, and not just a side-effect of our current version of democracy under capitalism. Simply put, if I had 100B, and there was outside force threatening my business I would certainly invest to protect myself - this includes mundane things like investing in security and outside threats like regulation. I…

Anything can be a special interest group with the right framing.

Rich individuals can act just as you’ve described. Groups of workers can get together and get bills passed specifically for their special interest to the detriment of the country as a whole. Etc.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#259
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you may find this hard to believe, but some people like to help other people and be of service. I drive where I want and when I want. I don't have to pick anyone up. That's going to change if we have to be employees. Taking away freedom and forcing employees to follow restrictive rules is how to breed resentment. You're going to miss Lyft and Uber when it is gone and turns into a taxi company.

I know you may find this hard to believe, but there is a difference between sucking dick for fun and sucking dick because you have to pay the bills.

Please try to be civil. This language is unbecoming.

Re: California appeals court rules Uber, Lyft must reclassify drivers as employees

#260
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Watching this fight I wonder "Who is in charge of governing California?" The same people vote on the proposition who vote for the government. I don't like the things California tends to vote for but it is nothing short of enlightened to allow people a mechanism to directly overrule the legislature. If the people don't like the government's labour law, who are the government to object? I can't for the life of me see…

To be fair only "workers" and employees should be able to vote on employment law then, no students no pensioners. This is why employment law needs to be take away from the states - have one federally defined set of laws - stops a race to the bottom.

>This is why employment law needs to be take away from the states - have one federally defined set of laws - stops a race to the bottom.

It's not that hard to imagine a world where Chester Cheeto wins in a landslide, the Republicans get a healthy majority in congress and the Kochs convince them to repeal most existing federal labor law.

Will you be clamoring for federal labor and employment law then?

Sure, there might be 40-something states with lower cost of doing business than CA. But is that status quo really worse than one where the federal government both controls employment law and guts it? If CA really is doing it right then surely the people working menial jobs will be better off, have more income, spend more income and their economy will grow, the rules will be a net-positive overall and other states will adopt similar ones.

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