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PHP 8: Before and After

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Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#131

Post by tpetry »

dkarlovi wrote: post #87
AdrianB1 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All good advice for the average PHP developer, but I think it is overkill for someone that is starting with PHP just to keep alive a very old app. Adding tests for an app with no documentation requires a lot of effort.

Of course, that's why the list is sorted, he might never make it pass 1 :)

Yes. Upgrading really old php application (v4? really?) to v8 is such a big step it will need much dedication, so many things changed between 4 and 5 its not easy. And even upgrading 5 to 7 may break so many things. I would not like to switch with him.

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#132

Post by gregoriol »

A lot of those changes look like good things taken from other languages that have done it well (the null ?-> and ??, ...).

But many things seem to be quite of a burden instead of a progress => why create a new match syntax when a switch is already well known for something similar? That will create confusion (thinking of all the for types of loops in JS!), plus it's still not an enum and cases will be missed.

And the worst being the attribute #[] syntax... why?! Almost every other language uses @attribute, and it is successful: simple to write, easy to read, why on earth a new and such complicated solution?

While php is making progress step by step, it has no chance of ever becoming of good reputation if it goes all the way to make itself more crazy.

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#133

Post by giantDinosaur »

codegeek wrote: post #120
TheHemric wrote: post #112

I don't really understand why in 2020 there's still this kind of blind hatred against this language. It often comes from horrible bad memories from previous versions or old frameworks. Objectively, compared to other languages i've been working with it is more than OK. Despite it's lack of "style" it is easy to understand, host, tests, diagnose and it is powerfull for web applications. I've been working on a SaaS API…

The funny part is that all the hate they have towards PHP, pretty much most languages have similar or other problems. I say this as someone who loves languages like Go, Python but I run a SAAS business in PHP which brings in close to 7 figures ARR and employs 15+ people. All these developers shitting on PHP are basically the elitist form of "I don't do PHP so you shouldn't either because it sucks and is so much bette…

I know people who run decently sized and successful businesses in a variety of mind-numbing technology (try FileMaker scripting or shell scripting) but that definitely doesn't mean those things don't often suck and that there aren't advances in PL's that don't or won't lead to better software. (I personally don't use PHP at all because I haven't yet seen a reason to use it for any new projects over Python or TS. Is that new match expression proper pattern matching? ;))

It's pretty hard to draw a link between these things and commercial success, but it somewhat unseriously reminds me of Jonathan Blow's warnings that eventually everything is just going to fall apart.

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#134

Post by js4ever »

Few months ago I was debating with a friend working since 15 years on PHP, my point was php is slow and max throughput is 200-500 rps, which is quite low compared to Go, node.js, C# and others, he answered that 100-200 request per second is more than enough for most use cases. I'm working on systems with 25K RPS at peaks, but for simple projects and small companies he is right ... But why should anyone start a new project in php now that we have so many good alternatives?

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#135

Post by codegeek »

giantDinosaur wrote: post #133
codegeek wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny part is that all the hate they have towards PHP, pretty much most languages have similar or other problems. I say this as someone who loves languages like Go, Python but I run a SAAS business in PHP which brings in close to 7 figures ARR and employs 15+ people. All these developers shitting on PHP are basically the elitist form of "I don't do PHP so you shouldn't either because it sucks and is so much bette…

I know people who run decently sized and successful businesses in a variety of mind-numbing technology (try FileMaker scripting or shell scripting) but that definitely doesn't mean those things don't often suck and that there aren't advances in PL's that don't or won't lead to better software. (I personally don't use PHP at all because I haven't yet seen a reason to use it for any new projects over Python or TS. Is t…

Yes I am not necessarily disagreeing. I am saying that people who shit on PHP think that other languages are somehow this magic wand that is so much better. I challenge the "so much better" part because the cost vs benefit matters.

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#136

Post by dcabrejas »

TheHemric wrote: post #112

I don't really understand why in 2020 there's still this kind of blind hatred against this language. It often comes from horrible bad memories from previous versions or old frameworks. Objectively, compared to other languages i've been working with it is more than OK. Despite it's lack of "style" it is easy to understand, host, tests, diagnose and it is powerfull for web applications. I've been working on a SaaS API…

I haven't found any good arguments against PHP in the comments here, just pure hate. Let's name a few of the arguments people are making:

1. Its variables start with $ and that is ugly: I mean, come on, I won't even entertain this bigotry.

2. It used to be better before: This is just pure nonesense, before OOP PHP wasn't good to create any big and well-structured application, it is ironic because most of the bad opinions about PHP come from people who used it a long time ago. Besides, you can still use PHP as you used to, but now you have more tools at your dispossal, You are free to use it as before.

3. It is trying to be Java: Well, sure it is more like Java, only less verbose and easier to write. Developers can be much more productive in PHP. And moving in the direction of Java is not a bad thing as the language moved into the Enterprise space. I worked with Magento every day and I am glad the language is more than Java than it used to be, it means we can organise our code better. Again, ironic that some people who mentioned this as something bad about PHP, then went on to say they prefer Java.

4. Composer has made the language worse: Honestly this is so ridiculous... so now having package managers is a bad thing? I haven't met an actual professional PHP programmer who holds that opinion. All of them like composer, it makes reusing code and creating apps in PHP much easier.

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#137

Post by codegeek »

js4ever wrote: post #134

Few months ago I was debating with a friend working since 15 years on PHP, my point was php is slow and max throughput is 200-500 rps, which is quite low compared to Go, node.js, C# and others, he answered that 100-200 request per second is more than enough for most use cases. I'm working on systems with 25K RPS at peaks, but for simple projects and small companies he is right ... But why should anyone start a new pr…

"he answered that 100-200 request per second is more than enough for most use cases"

Exactly this. If you already know PHP and can produce results (mostly CRUD apps) and it doesn't need millions of rps, why do we need to use another language because they are so much better ? So much better at what ? It is like saying "I have a hammer, so everything looks like a nail to me". Not every web app has to be written in Lua/Rust/Go/Julia etc. Each language comes at a cost. No free lunch.

"But why should anyone start a new project in php now that we have so many good alternatives?"

Because everything comes at a cost. You want to use Rust instead of PHP ? Sure, sounds great. Now lets go find a really good Rust developer who also understands how to host it correctly and then if he leaves, can I easily find another Rust developer ? Hmmm. You also need to account for maturity, ecosytem, hosting, maintenance etc which are all real world problems. Building a new shiny toy project ? Go ahead use whatever language you love. Again, it is about cost vs benefit.

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#138

Post by lifthrasiir »

gregoriol wrote: post #132

A lot of those changes look like good things taken from other languages that have done it well (the null ?-> and ??, ...). But many things seem to be quite of a burden instead of a progress => why create a new match syntax when a switch is already well known for something similar? That will create confusion (thinking of all the for types of loops in JS!), plus it's still not an enum and cases will be missed. And the…

> And the worst being the attribute #[] syntax... why?! Almost every other language uses @attribute, and it is successful: simple to write, easy to read, why on earth a new and such complicated solution?

Simple, it was already taken up [1]. Also `@attribute` syntax is by no way universal (and semantics wildly vary even with the same syntax): `#[]` in particular might have been inspired by Rust.

[1] https://www.php.net/language.operators.errorcontrol

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#139

Post by Shish2k »

TheHemric wrote: post #112

I don't really understand why in 2020 there's still this kind of blind hatred against this language. It often comes from horrible bad memories from previous versions or old frameworks. Objectively, compared to other languages i've been working with it is more than OK. Despite it's lack of "style" it is easy to understand, host, tests, diagnose and it is powerfull for web applications. I've been working on a SaaS API…

People keep saying “PHP in ${current_year} is actually great, it only sucked in ${current_year-5}!” - I feel like it still sucks[1] today, but it’ll take 5 more years for the fans to realise it, when they have the PHP from ${current_year+5} to compare against :P

[1] Being slightly hyperbolic - I won’t deny that you can do good things with PHP, as you can do good things with any tool; and AFAIK it’s still unmatched when it comes to low barrier of entry and shallow learning curve.

(I’m coming from the perspective of someone who mostly uses rust, python, and PHP7.3, with odd bits of Hack - in the past week, PHP7.3 has frustrated me with lack of typed arrays, lack of typed properties [fixed in 7.4! Only took 5 years between the introduction of type declarations and consistent support for type declarations...], and dictionary keys being automatically cast from string to int if they look vaguely numeric. It’s a shame Hack never took off in the open source world, as it’s basically “What if we could reimagine PHP without the legacy baggage?”)

Re: PHP 8: Before and After

#140

Post by gregoriol »

welly wrote: post #127
gregoriol wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a sad choice on it's own

Is it? Why is that?

First because you don't really have completion or templating over its content: you mostly do copy/pasting or guessing what you have to put in there.

Second because they are using all kind of tricks to add variables into it (ENV, ...): the configuration is often dynamic by nature or by re-use.

Third because it's only strings, which is prone to mistakes: they are having a huge lot of code to check those configurations.

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