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Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

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Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#51

Post by wenc »

VectorLock wrote: post #20
throwaway889900 wrote: post #11

I think the most odd thing is the cheap hardware store greenhouses for outdoor dining that are shown. I guess those patio heaters don't really do the trick do they?

If you build a greenhouse around your outdoor dining area, is it an outdoor dining area any more?

The reasoning I've heard is that greenhouses provide group isolation rather than overall ventilation per se, but there's usually also a trapdoor or partially open roof to vent the air, so it does work in some sense. This is what it looks like in practice in Chicago [0].

Indoor Plexiglass partitions provide isolation too but the level of isolation is more limited. Plus the air in a smaller indoor location is recirculated between partitions, whereas outdoors it is ostensibly exchanged at much higher rates.

Which makes me wonder, can't we build indoor booths?

The catch would be one would also need a HVAC that can exchange air outside the booths at high throughputs like aircraft cabins.

ACPH = air changes per hour = 60 * Q / L where Q = volumetric flow (ft3/min), L = ft3.

Aircraft cabin ACPH are around 20-30 (and through a HEPA filter) [1], while a restaurant dining area is 8-12 [2] (many assumptions here, like airtightness, etc), and no HEPA.

[0] https://www.timeout.com/chicago/news/dine-and-drink-in-a-pri...

[1] https://www.iata.org/contentassets/f1163430bba94512a583eb6d6...

[2] https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-change-rate-room-d_86...

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#52

Post by mumblemumble »

skybrian wrote: post #50

Isn’t it crazy what people will do to preserve their way of life when it no longer makes sense and there are good alternatives? Not every food works as takeout, but it’s hardly a deprivation.

This doesn't seem that crazy to me. But I do live in a relatively cold climate. Outdoor dining in 50F weather was a thing we'd do even before the pandemic hit. Heck, I've done outdoor dining below freezing in the mountain town where my brother lives.

The best way to combat cabin fever is to get out of the cabin.

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#53

Post by mumblemumble »

kbenson wrote: post #35

The few times I've eaten outside in the evening the last few months, I've noted how whichever companies that make those outdoor space heaters are probably experiencing a huge boom, as every restaurant capable sports a new or larger outdoor dining area, and even some that aren't capable get public sector help to make it so (e.g. in my city they closed the major downtown strip to auto traffic to allow outdoor dining ar…

I'm curious what the energy formula on those things looks like. Is cold weather outdoor socializing going to help us catch up on the backlog of fossil fuel we haven't been burning in our cars?

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#54

Post by 01100011 »

paxys wrote: post #33

Closed streets and expanded outdoor dining is the best thing to come to SF during the pandemic, especially since the weather is mild enough that they can be utilized year-round. I really hope the city decides to extend them beyond December.

Mild? Haha. My wife and I celebrated our anniversary back in late June by visiting the city and having dinner outdoors. Despite patio heaters, being on the leeward side of the building, and blankets(!!!) provided by the proprietor, we were absolutely freezing. I understand it's probably fine now, but give it a month or so.

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#56

Post by Ericson2314 »

01100011 wrote: post #54
paxys wrote: post #33

Closed streets and expanded outdoor dining is the best thing to come to SF during the pandemic, especially since the weather is mild enough that they can be utilized year-round. I really hope the city decides to extend them beyond December.

Mild? Haha. My wife and I celebrated our anniversary back in late June by visiting the city and having dinner outdoors. Despite patio heaters, being on the leeward side of the building, and blankets(!!!) provided by the proprietor, we were absolutely freezing. I understand it's probably fine now , but give it a month or so.

Historically, it can well be worse in June than November, haha.

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#57

Post by DoreenMichele »

Ericson2314 wrote: post #56
01100011 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mild? Haha. My wife and I celebrated our anniversary back in late June by visiting the city and having dinner outdoors. Despite patio heaters, being on the leeward side of the building, and blankets(!!!) provided by the proprietor, we were absolutely freezing. I understand it's probably fine now , but give it a month or so.

Historically, it can well be worse in June than November, haha.

Yeah, it's called June Gloom.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Gloom

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#58

Post by mensetmanusman »

xenihn wrote: post #34
mensetmanusman wrote: post #28

Local heating units (clothing/chairs/IR light beams) with human body temperature feedback to make outdoors comfortable during the winter is totally possible now. What is the best product in this space?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

Sounds like local police forces should get this to help keep citizens comfortable while they eat.

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#59

Post by ejvincent »

baby wrote: post #42
eatonphil wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in NYC. It's so great to see the almost competition by restaurants to outdo each other in designing outdoor spaces. I really hope these changes stay permanently. My only gripe is that we haven't figured out the European style where all the seats face the road. :)

That’s mostly in Paris. Don’t think I’ve seen that elsewhere.

Barcelona too.

Re: Chefs are adapting their menus for chilly outdoor dining

#60

Post by ars »

superkuh wrote: post #29
VectorLock wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you build a greenhouse around your outdoor dining area, is it an outdoor dining area any more?

My family's plan for watching $sportsball together outside this winter is having everyone in their own small ice fishing tents with personal electric heaters. There's going to be a lot of extension cords running out of the garage.

I assume you are aware that each heater will need to be on its own circuit? A garage typically only has 2 or so, so you'll need to run extension cords to various rooms in the house.

Also you'll need 14 gauge extension cords, many regular ones are only 16 or 18 gauge.

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