Live data from Hacker News

SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

mercurynews.com

81–90 of 109 posts

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#81
post #77
post #70

Just in case anyone didn't bother reading the article - SETI is not calling off all of their searches, just shutting down one of its main radio arrays in Mountain View. Their other time-shared operations sound like they'll continue. Not really sure why people feel like misrepresenting articles like this all the time, but this is one of them.

The article misrepresents itself. "Said SETI Director Jill Tarter, 'that a time when we discover so many planets to look at, we don't have the operating funds to listen.'" It's a pretty naked sympathy appeal for money. "Honestly, if everybody contributed just 3 extra cents on their 1040 tax forms", etc. Anyone around here familiar with the "Iron Law of Bureaucracy" coined by Jerry Pournelle? For every sufficiently la…

If they dont have any funding its going to be kind of hard to accomplish goal #1, right?

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#82
post #46
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure with that kind of short term thinking we will never get anywhere. It is far to early to call the investment a failure, in relative timescales it would be like calling a new school a failure because it had a bad first day.

Let's say we get a signal. Then what? Even if we do find a signal, there is no payoff. The money is better invested elsewhere, then, once we are better able to capitalize upon a signal being found, then, we should invest in finding one. Right now, its premature.

You're assuming a lot by saying "there is no payoff".

For instance, you're assuming that if we get a signal, from aliens, we will learn absolutely nothing of value from it.

I think we've got a few smart people hanging out on Earth; more than enough to learn something valuable from alien signals. For instance, we might learn how aliens send radio signals, which might have some relevance to our own communication technologies. We might learn something about alien linguistics, which might have applications here on Earth that could be beneficial. We might learn what alien porn looks like, and I know that most of you reading this comment would be very interested in that.

What seems vanishingly unlikely is that we'd learn NOTHING of value.

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#83
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say we get a signal. Then what? Even if we do find a signal, there is no payoff. The money is better invested elsewhere, then, once we are better able to capitalize upon a signal being found, then, we should invest in finding one. Right now, its premature.

I agree with you. Very few people have thought through what would happen if SETI found a clear signal. Say intelligence is only 20 light years away from us and they say "Hi! Here we are!" What possible step could we take? They are soo far away.

We could talk to them. We could listen to them. Chances are at least one side would have something useful to learn from the other. (Think about how much we know that we didn't 100 years ago. Unless this hypothetical other intelligent civilization, having developed independently of ours, happens to be within 100 years of progress of us in every respect, someone's going to learn something.)

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#84
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say we get a signal. Then what? Even if we do find a signal, there is no payoff. The money is better invested elsewhere, then, once we are better able to capitalize upon a signal being found, then, we should invest in finding one. Right now, its premature.

I agree with you. Very few people have thought through what would happen if SETI found a clear signal. Say intelligence is only 20 light years away from us and they say "Hi! Here we are!" What possible step could we take? They are soo far away.

You're forgetting about the existence of Republicans. Clearly, what we'd do is immediately fund a massive space army to go and attack the aliens.

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#85

This seems like massive mis-management of money. Paul Allen contributed $50M to build the array. Whoever was managing that project should have thought about sticking back 30% or so for running it after it got built. Didn't have enough to build all the scopes? Build a few at a time. Presumably this is what happens when you don't have clear goals and objectives laid out - and oversight to make sure you don't screw it u…

It makes me wonder how much Paul Allen was involved with it besides the money grant. You'd think he'd actually enjoy geeking out on some of the details and be involved enough to either a) prevent mismanagement or b) have enough confidence in what they are doing to continue to commit funds to it.

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#86
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, we could take the cost of one day of our Libyan Kinetic Military Action ($100 million) and fund this program for a generation.

Or we could take the 2.5 million for SETI and help people get access to safe drinking water, food, and vaccines. After all, people on Earth suffering should be a higher priority than looking for spacemen, right? edit: This might have come across as snarky - that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to show that you can argue that any government spending can be spent better, and/or more morally, somewhere else.

"After all, people on Earth suffering should be a higher priority than looking for spacemen, right?"

Of course not. That line of reasoning is always flawed, as it is presumably always typed on a computer that was purchased with funds that weren't used for free water/food/vaccines.

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#88

Searching for aliens seems like the ultimate high risk/high reward investment opportunity. If someone secretly made contact with an advanced extraterrestrial civilization the potential for profit would be huge. On the other hand, good luck executing on that.

This sounds pretty crappy but the more I think about it, what's the best case scenario here? Mind you, we're coming out of the worst recession of most of our lives, we've still not fundamentally fixed any of those problems and then with the general status of human life on most of the planet, global warming, etc..

I'm just trying to think this through, so we identify some sort of signal. I'll bet that there will be detractors, with legitimate arguments, why wouldn't there be? It's not going to be an English message encoded in a format we can't dispute. Maybe it's a bad assumption but assuming the aliens use radio technology, it seems at least somewhat reasonable to assume that they'd use it to communicate with themselves before attempting to communicate with others, for those aliens, we'd most likely intercept their communications signals rather than directed communication with us or others. Communications which happened years and years ago. The best case scenario would be one of the near by stars having alien life that happened to be listening too and in that case should we get a signal and send one back it would still be on the order of a decade long cycle. What's the average case? A century long communication cycle? Assuming both parties are listening and engaged? Likewise, if they're sufficently advanced, wouldn't they compress and encrypt their communications and it should appear to be entropy to us?

I think there are a lot of things you should do just to do. The best upside here seems like hope or an easing of the beliefs about the universe, it just seems like we'd have to get really really lucky to actually communicate with something else and it could take centuries to establish that. Which in a round about sort of way makes it seem like shutting down a telescope for a few years isn't so harmful after all. Then let's just toss in nuclear proliferation, Islam fundamentalism (as well as other religious zealotry over the centuries,) AIDS in Africa (imagine should it some how become more communicable...) hunger, and global warming as issues that might affect our ability to concentrate on a problem for a century or more, is stoppage that bad?

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#89
post #78
post #3

This needs to be crowd-sourced. Surely there are 5 million people who'd be willing to donate a dollar each for this.

Given that so many have already helped with SETI@Home and used far more of their resources than $1, I'd say that's definitely true. For instance, back in the 1990's, I had a NeXT, a couple Apollos, an SGI Challenge, and a few Macs cranking away on SETI@Home blocks, some of those machines running 24/7.

Aha, clearly the solution is to release a new version of SETI@home that mines Bitcoins and donates them to SETI.

Re: SETI Institute suspends search for aliens

#90

This seems like massive mis-management of money. Paul Allen contributed $50M to build the array. Whoever was managing that project should have thought about sticking back 30% or so for running it after it got built. Didn't have enough to build all the scopes? Build a few at a time. Presumably this is what happens when you don't have clear goals and objectives laid out - and oversight to make sure you don't screw it u…

My understanding (via astronomer scuttlebutt) is that the SETI institute fell massively short of the private fundraising goals it set at the outset of the project. (In fairness, this was during the economic crisis.) Paul Allen's funds were intended to start the hardware off, and then the privately raised funds would yield the operational/expansion budget.

So, not so much mismanagement as overoptimistic budgeting.

(Building a few telescopes at a time is likely a false economy, given the costs of paying engineering/fabrication costs over a longer period.)

All that said, it's going to be harder to get private donors to contribute towards telescopes in the future...

Post reply on HN