In the Basement of the Ivory Tower • Hacker News Board

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#121

Post by anewaccountname » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 5:26 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #116

davidw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I'm not a dog, but a person, and I am actually quite willing to listen to people I disagree with as long as they are polite and reasonable.

There's listening, then there's listening. When someone is really learning, you are dealing with the edges of their model of the world and their conscious perception. When you are really teaching, you are playing in this dangerous interstice. Sometimes, the best way of teaching people is tricking them. Sometimes, if you just tell them, they'll just rationalize what you have to tell them away. This is more apt to appl…

Sounds like jesus:

Mark 4:10 When he was alone, those around him and the Twelve asked him about the parables.

Luke 8:10 He said, 'The secret of the kingdom of God is granted to you.'

Mark 4:11-12 'But to those on the outside, everything comes in parables so that they may look and look but never perceive, listen and listen but never understand.'

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#122

Post by rkts » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 6:40 AM UTC

wallflower wrote: post #110

aspirant wrote: post #73

Thoreau said, "For every thousand hacking at the leaves of evil, there is one striking at the root." Here is my attempt. Shortly after we're born, we begin to perceive a certain amount of value in everything we encounter. We assign value to food, attention, comfort, safety, pleasure, affection, entertainment, possessions, virtue, appearance, and a million other things. We assign value to a thousand instances of a hun…

> Scholastically, life works out better for people who value books more than television. And better still for people who value knowledge more than almost everything else. "Truly rich people talk about ideas, poor people talk about other people."

The funny thing about that quote is that it defeats itself.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#123

Post by william42 » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 8:29 AM UTC

neodude wrote: post #101

davidw wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, I'm not a dog, but a person, and I am actually quite willing to listen to people I disagree with as long as they are polite and reasonable.

Trick the mind, not the person. Symbolism may convey something you can't understand through normal conversation.

I'll grant this. However, I'm willing to say that most literary criticism is based off of imagined rather than real symbolism.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#124

Post by listic » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 12:37 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #48

marvin wrote: post #32

This is a very interesting story. What I'm left with is the question of 'who are these people, really'? Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? This seems counter-intuitive to me, I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. If these people are out there, I have certainly never had an…

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? Yes. 21-23%. Or, higher, depending on how you count. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. Correct again. The wikipedia article notes the high correlation of illiteracy to delinquency and…

That's a striking case.

But about that 21-23% figure.. Here in wikipedia is a map that shows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Literacy_rate_world.svg

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#125

Post by aasarava » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 3:58 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #97

aasarava wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are so far away from an actually usable interface it's disgusting. Tech interfaces are usable -- they're just not intuitive to those who didn't grow up using computers. Ironically, part of the problem is that the metaphors and shortcuts that some interfaces use in an attempt to make things easier end up make things more confusing: - Operating systems: "Why is the trashcan on my desktop?" - Macs: "If I want to ejec…

But that is true of any machinery. Could you walk up to a lathe and immediately start making something?

Not many people have to use a lathe. It's designed for specialists to use, and the knowledge of how to use it is a given prerequisite that the designer takes into account.

Cellphones on the other hand are one of the most widely distributed electronic devices in the world, and they're clearly designed for anyone to use. It's certainly the designer's prerogative to assume the user will have a certain level of training and familiarity with it (or will take the time to learn it), but my argument is that in some cases a designer who goes the extra mile and makes a truly intuitive device has the opportunity to capture a much larger user base.

You could say that's what blogger did -- there were many ways to build a blog before, but Evan Williams and co. made it much easier to launch and maintain one, and that paid off for them.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#126

Post by helveticaman » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 6:24 PM UTC

pi3832 wrote: post #36

tom_rath wrote: post #3

The most helpful grade I ever received on an essay was an 'F'. It was in my first year of university. I knew the course and knew the material but couldn't have been arsed to put together a paper which adequately addressed the subject. The comments the professor wrote were scathing and it was a wonderful full slap on the face that I'd better get my act together and actually deliver what was expected of me if I ever wa…

Did you go to university in the '70s pr something? All that's "expected" of students anymore is a pulse, AFAICT.

Depends where you go.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#127

Post by hermaphrobyte » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 9:15 PM UTC

Interesting. Entering college as a computer agnostic and hs dropout in the late 80's I was dismayed by my curriculum and it's focus on word processing, dos, floppy disks, etc.. It seemed that the computer medium was dross and doldrum.

Previously, in HS, I was terribly bored with most subject matter presentation and irritated by authority in general.

I had been an avid reader since 5 or 6 and had read science fiction/fantasy and classic literature during these formative years. I did not do well in the college environment. I dropped all my classes.

Years later, I returned to college: emphasis had once again turned to the printed word, symbolism, and other recognizable concepts rather than any ability to use a computer. 4.0 average for two semesters was the result.

At the third semester I found myself in honors courses which irritated me with opinions I was too immature to discard gracefully and once again dropped out.

Provided as counterpoint to this article.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#128

Post by aspirant » Thu, Jul 17, 2008, 10:23 PM UTC

rkts wrote: post #120

bluishgreen wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to point out. You and your brother cannot possibly have had the same stimuli. You were his elder brother (say) and he was younger to you. People sometimes resist each others ideas. My friend took to piano lessons because his brother hated it. Sibling rivalry factors ever so little especially at the early stages of growth, and it tips everything later on.

Technically true, but sophist's experience is consistent with scientific findings. Sibling studies have repeatedly shown that genes do account for a significant amount of variation in behavior. While environment plays a role as well, the "blank slate" theory is flat wrong. For an overview of the evidence, I recommend The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker.

As far as I can tell, no one here has posited the blank slate theory.

My point was that the conclusions we come to about the world around us are the largest factor in determining where we end up on the spectrum between mediocre and extraordinary.

If we really thought DNA was more important than our beliefs, we would spend less time trying to correct and inform each other on Hacker News and more time getting our genes sequenced.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#129

Post by rkts » Fri, Jul 18, 2008, 7:12 AM UTC

aspirant wrote: post #128

rkts wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technically true, but sophist's experience is consistent with scientific findings. Sibling studies have repeatedly shown that genes do account for a significant amount of variation in behavior. While environment plays a role as well, the "blank slate" theory is flat wrong. For an overview of the evidence, I recommend The Blank Slate by Steven Pinker.

As far as I can tell, no one here has posited the blank slate theory. My point was that the conclusions we come to about the world around us are the largest factor in determining where we end up on the spectrum between mediocre and extraordinary. If we really thought DNA was more important than our beliefs, we would spend less time trying to correct and inform each other on Hacker News and more time getting our genes…

> the conclusions we come to about the world around us are the largest factor

Also known as "the blank slate theory." Or mostly-blank, if you want to be pedantic.

Re: In the Basement of the Ivory Tower

#130

Post by neilk » Sat, Jul 19, 2008, 8:01 PM UTC

listic wrote: post #124

neilk wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there really a considerable portion of American (or we could say Western) society that is practically illiterate? Yes. 21-23%. Or, higher, depending on how you count. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_illiteracy I thought it was hardly possible to function at all without a basic understanding of the written word. Correct again. The wikipedia article notes the high correlation of illiteracy to delinquency and…

That's a striking case. But about that 21-23% figure.. Here in wikipedia is a map that shows http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Literacy_rate_world.svg

Rates differ according to definition. It's clear that YouTube commenters aren't illiterate in the sense of total inability to read; they're typing, after all.

'Functional illiteracy' encompasses people who can read and write, but not with the fluency required to function in society, for instance, when understanding and completing a job application.

Let's face it though; do you really think you live in a society where >95% of the population can read and write fluently? Educated people tend to live in a bit of a bubble, surrounded by others like them, but YouTube tells a different story.