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When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

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Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#371
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not making a counterargument. The operating word is “masses”. 1-on-1 doesn’t scale. The political reality may be that support for schooling would crater if the report were widely known, but the alternative isn’t realistically “modern schools” vs. “1-on-1 tutoring”, but rather “modern schools” vs. “nothing”, or, optimistically, “modern schools” vs. “something not yet invented”.

Put 30 kids in front of a teacher for 8 hours - that's about 15 minutes of instructor attention per kid per day on average. If we assume that one on one sessions need to last 8 hours, then yeah the system doesn't scale; but more realistically the kid's educational needs could be met in a fraction of the time. One person can tutor dozens of kids a week if they do it full time, but even better you can tutor without doi…

Unless I'm mistaken, you're assuming one of two things:

1) 1-on-1 tutoring happens online. I would like evidence that this is effective, given the challenges this pandemic has put in evidence. Particularly, note that this is supposed to be aimed at all children, not just particularly motivated or interested ones that will sit quietly learning at their computer.

2) 1-on-1 tutoring does not happen online. In which case you either have to add the cost of getting the kids to the tutor (if the tutor stays put, maximizing their throughput) or getting the tutor to the kids (reducing their throughput and their student count).

Beyond that, modern schooling is an entire system that addresses many many problems in society including:

- Daycare for kids ages 5-18

- Logistics of getting kids to and from school (in the US)

- Logistics of providing shared facilities for things like experimental science classes .

- Logistics of providing shared access to higher level computing facilities than individual poor students can afford.

- For a nontrivial number of students, access to food during the day.

- Many more, because I am not an expert and I literally came up with this list off the top of my head.

Are these problems unsurmountable? Do they all need to be solved by the educational system? Maybe not. But imperfectly as it solves them, it does address them for now. You can't throw out a significant part of the public service provided by public education and claim you successfully replaced it.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#372
post #133
post #87

My brother and I were homeschooled, but it was quite structured and we wrote the same provincial exams as every other grade 12 kid. My brother did the SAT as well. We had excellent scores. We both dropped out of college with near perfect GPAs. Today I'm a successful self-taught software engineer now starting a SaaS business. My brother is a famous sci fi author. He makes even more than I do. I think homeschooling let…

This might work for outliers/higher IQ/elite people in the HN community, but consider this: 1. School is probably the best public invention to systematically distribute knowledge to the masses. Some like to point out "dropouts", "self-taught" geniuses or the "lucky few" as models instead of exceptions to the rule. 2. Not everyone is self-motivated to learn. Children, at critical developmental ages, are more prone to…

"School's purpose is not to teach obedience or even getting a job. It is there to teach us critical thinking, and consequently, how to be a good citizen"

Having worked in public education for 15+ years I wish it were true that the goal is to teacher critical thinking. Sadly from my experience it is more about teaching "compliance". Critical Thinking seems to be pushed more for undergrad + schooling these days.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#373
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put 30 kids in front of a teacher for 8 hours - that's about 15 minutes of instructor attention per kid per day on average. If we assume that one on one sessions need to last 8 hours, then yeah the system doesn't scale; but more realistically the kid's educational needs could be met in a fraction of the time. One person can tutor dozens of kids a week if they do it full time, but even better you can tutor without doi…

Unless I'm mistaken, you're assuming one of two things: 1) 1-on-1 tutoring happens online. I would like evidence that this is effective, given the challenges this pandemic has put in evidence. Particularly, note that this is supposed to be aimed at all children, not just particularly motivated or interested ones that will sit quietly learning at their computer. 2) 1-on-1 tutoring does not happen online. In which case…

I was envisioning primarily in person tutoring, which has been effectively done for a very long time. That said, online tutoring is an option that many can and would employ. That a few kids might need a different structure is a very good argument for the flexibility of tutoring.

We already transport students and people already commute to work. The money you currently pay to stick kids in your school district on a bus can be used to facilitate transportation for tutoring. Some tutoring services may provide a central location while others may bring the tutor to you, and you pick the one that works best for your family.

As for your other points:

Dedicated daycare facilities can be more efficiently set up if that is their only objective. Effectively teaching hundreds of students at the same time is impossible, so you need dozens of teachers and classrooms. But if your only concern is making sure they don't kill eachother, you can easily throw a few hundred kids in a gym or a plsyground and tell them to have fun with only a small handful of moderators - which is exactly what most schools do during recess. A good portion of the current school population probably doesn't even need such services (if your 18 year old needs to be babysat, they're going to have a very rough time at 19).

School creates the logistical problem of getting kids to and from school. Again, the bus you're already paying for can take people to a school or a shared learning center or a library or a tutor's office.

The money you are paying to maintain the school science lab can also be spent to support a community science lab. This building can be much smaller, less staffed, and more optimally configured than a full highschool

The money you spend to support a school computer lab can also be spent to support a community computer lab. In general this already exists at most public libraries. The same argument as for the science lab applies here.

The money you spend to support school lunches can also be spent on food programs.

When all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail, but a hammer is not the right tool for many jobs. Likewise when all you have is a school, every societal need related to children starts to look like a school problem, but that does not mean school actually solves those problems in an efficient way. It really does not take any great mental leaps to imagine services dedicated to solving individual problems being more efficient than something that was never originally intended to solve that problem.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#374
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't reveal that here because it's easy to identify me from my HN posts and thus tie his pen name to his real identity.

If it's who the 'obvious' google search reveals, you've said too much already (and at least one the links that search gives reveals the family name directly).

I suspect the worry is in the other direction. Sure it is not difficult to figure out what the brother's pen name is. And if you know both his names, it is not hard to find connections between them.

The part that popular authors usually want to avoid is making it easy to go from the pen name to the IRL name if you don't have some specific guess or anything. Right now I don't think going in that is particularly easy. If the grandparent however has said the name here it would almost certainly have made it easier to get from the pen name to the IRL name.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you use terms such as "cancel culture" and "liberals", it's pretty clear you're either a right-wing US citizen or someone who wishes they were one. So you can't say "cancel culture has gone too far" without signaling you're right-wing? I'm not up to speed with the exact politics, but I've heard the term in non-right wing contexts. Seems to me like that would make it impossible to talk about things, which is what…

Am I the only person who found it ironic and meta that, in a thread about canceling people based on certain words and phrases, OP kind of tried to "cancel" your argument based on your use of the phrase "cancel culture". We are deep into the recursion now.

[deleted]

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#376
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is there to teach us critical thinking I believe the No Child Left Behind Act changed that.

Alas, often "no child left behind" also means "no child let ahead".

A one size fits all approach is something that should change.

How we change this, I don't know.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#377
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> famous sci fi author If it's the same author I found based on a cursory search from your profile, then "famous" is a bit of a stretch. > Where I think it hurt was we didn't do any group social activities and lived in remote places I got a similar feeling reading about Chris Paolini. Homeschooled, raised in a remote place. Fed a lot of his early life experiences, particularly travel, into his novels but felt alienat…

Well he's not JK Rowling famous, but he has sold over a million books which puts him in a pretty elite club author wise. Especially in sci fi, that's a lot. I'm very proud of my brother, he started down a very difficult career path and became very successful. All self taught.

> sold over a million books

Perhaps I was the one stretching with my "cursory search", because I missed the pseudonym. A million sales is certainly "famous" from any reasonable standpoint.

Re: When You Get into Unschooling, It’s Almost Like a Religion

#378
post #239
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at politics in the UK on both sides of the political spectrum it is very clear that the public education system here is completely failing. In the general population there appears to be very little critical thinking, ability to regulate emotions, cost benefit analysis, consideration of opportunity cost, probabilistic thinking, nor even a rudimentary understanding of the scientific method, political and legal…

You just recited the unwashed masses dogma. I don't really agree with you at all. The vast majority of british people I've interacted with, even the "uneducated", all have reasonable, well thought out opinions even if they don't always agree with my own. I think it's much better than you seem to suggest. The real issue is with the politicians, and the fact we don't have proportional representation. There is a signifi…

Agree with you that society as a whole would make better decisions with PR. And at least policy would be more representative and lead to less resentment. The 2019 GE would have resulted in Tory minority, avoiding socialism and putting a dampener on a Hard Brexit.

My description of the unwashed masses applies to plenty of highly educated people too.

To the list, I would also add that people don’t seem to look at root causes of problems. This can be seen very clearly in the dysfunctional housing market. High rents are the fault of greedy landlords. As if landlords can just choose the price irrespective of the market! And a common objection to building more housing is that it wouldn’t be affordable. Using that logic, there would have been no point in planting potatoes during the Irish potato famine because they would be too expensive.

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