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Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

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Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#151
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we know their mechanism of action, but the grim reality is that they don't work that well at low doses, plus there are a lot of side effects even at low doses. (Because their mechanism is so general. Inhibit this, promote that. But those are all over our body. Plus eventually there are tolerance issues - so doctors switch from time to time. But then they have to fiddle with the dose.)

You would be quite wrong. We do know some bits about the effects of serotonin in the body, though I would be amazed if we really understood the whole story. But more than that, we have no idea what depression actually is, and that goes for any other psychiatric disease unrelated to direct brain damage. It would probably be more correct to call these syndromes rather than diseases, as we do not know the mechanisms cau…

I think we're in agreement, but perhaps I wasn't precise enough in my phrasing.

I mean we know what they do chemically, but as you said we have no idea what serotonin does. (Which is not true, but it's so complicated that what we know just makes us exhausted thinking about how truly complicated it is.)

> We don't know whether the brain chemistry changes we see in depression are the cause of the disease, or just the way 'sadness'/'lack of motivation' looks like neuro-chemically.

Indeed. Though it's always both. And probably asking whether we could, let's say take a pill every day as prevention seems unfathomable, because so far - again, just as you said - we don't really know what is depression. It's basically too much of feeling down. Feeling down when you shouldn't really be feeling that down, at least somehow "compared" to other people. So it's hard to know when prevention should start and when it's just normal case of the mondays.

However, just as with the nurture-nature conundrum it seems natural to treat it as one thing very tightly coupled with the other. Which makes it likely that any kind of treatment and understanding has to always handle both in a lockstep. (Even if there are a lot of subgroups, some are more susceptible on the chemistry side, some more on the cognitive side, some are simply resilient enough to deal with it with some light touch counseling, some got a very bad ticket in life and need a whole support network to keep the darkness at bay, etc.)

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#152

The lymph duct to the brain was only discovered in 2017. Prior to that, we had no idea how the brain clears waste and fights infections. https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/brain-c...

Yeah I remember that! Did med school in the early 2000s and they glossed over this part.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#153
post #89
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of the scene in Mad Men where Roger says something to the effect of "I did everything they said for my ulcer, I drank the buttermilk. and now I have a coronary!" Also, in the book "The King of Hearts" which describes the history of open heart surgery, the first open heart surgeries were done by sewing the circulatory system of two people together (usually mother and child). that was in the recent past.

We have advanced incredibly far in both treatment of CAD and ulcers. And in CAD, still making tremendous improvements within the last ten years. You don’t really know what you’re talking about at all, citing a TV show.

Ha, the show was making a joke and it was relevant.

The point I was making was that in our short lifetimes common medical practices have change directions 180 degrees. The guy who drank h pylori was in our lifetime.

I wonder what common problems and solutions we have today will be changed in the coming 30 years? Maybe there will be a cancer or fat pill and we can eat what we want. Maybe sugar will be banned. Maybe longevity might be conquered? Maybe covid-19 will be viewed like the black plague, which is well understood now.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#154
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know there's stuff there, but we don't necessarily know what all of it does. In this case the tissue in question was probably thought to be part of a known larger structure, but now it turns out it has a distinct function. Slices aren't going to tell you that.

On top of that, not every one has the same tissues in the same places, or the same tissues at all . Most famous is the palmaris longus muscle in the arm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmaris_longus_muscle ~14% of humans lack this muscle. Other deviations range from colorblindness all the way to lack of a cerebellum entirely. Humans are quite variable, even when healthy.

TIL I'm missing a muscle.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh dear, I should not have to labor the obvious but I will. With all the medical schools, hundreds of thousands of doctors, pathologists, diagnostic tools, xrays, MRIs, etc. etc. that we've had available in the 'modern' era of medicine - in the last 100 or so years - how the fucking hell did we miss something as 'obvious' as this? QED!

You should have to because the original comment was seeping in dramatic hyperbole to fish for points. At the end of the day, I'd much rather live with modern medicine than dark age medicine.

I suggest you read my next post below.

BTW, have you ever thought about the fact that cancer deaths are still very prevalent despite all the hyperbole from thousands of researchers say since 1950—yes, hyperbole deliberately spruced up to attract funding and to gain newspaper headlines.

The facts are straightforward: had 0.1% of the promises about improvements in cancer treatments that have appeared in the many tens of thousands of professional research papers on the subject over the past 70 yeas had actually come to fruition, then the disease would have all but been eliminated by now.

You might say this was justified but it's turned out that this type of hyperbole is not befitting of science, and that it's been largely responsible for the enormous drop in the public's approval rating for science over this time. (I'm not saying it's only cancer researchers (although they top the list), essentially it's all researchers these days.)

Don't say this isn't true, do your research. In the 1950s almost everyone believed in and accepted science—even though this was the time of the A-Bomb and bomb development, back then, people could still differentiate science per se* from the bad applications of science.

Now, 60 or 70 years later, I know scientists who, when, say, they go to a party, will disguise their real professions, so bad is Science's PR. (I'm even in that league but I'm less sensitive about it than some.)

Anyway, I'd suggest to you that in comparison with these professionals, my hyperbole pails into insignificance.

Ha, so you reckon my hyperbole is dramatic and done only to fish for points. That implies you actually think about such matters and consider points important (most of my posts never make it even to two). Franky, these post would altogether be much better of without them. For the record, your assertion isn't true (not that I expect you to believe what I've said).

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing with bytes, and everything else pertaining to computing, is that it's wholly invented by humans, so of course it's possible to obtain a complete enough mental image of things like CPUs given enough documentation. Human body, on the other hand, is literally alien technology because humans themselves didn't take any part in engineering it.

Actually, you’d be surprised how plausible it is to diagram the human electrophysiology using electromechanical circuit analogs. Everything in the body signals electrically, and biological matter being piezoelectric has been known (probably not popularly) since the late 60’s. Indeed, I am finishing up my dissertation applying electrical engineering theory to model cellular evolutionary biology predicated on digital s…

It's not that. Yes it's all electrical and chemical and electrochemical and so on. The problem is not with finding a good visual/logical representation.

You usually don't see connections between different things when you aren't actively looking for them, or when you haven't seen/thought those things to be related in the past. Since CPUs were designed by humans, your logical reasoning would usually work well when reverse engineering one, especially if you know the general ideas of how integrated circuits are constructed and what functional blocks a CPU is made of. Nature, on the other hand, has no logic. Your reasoning doesn't work with natural phenomena, and that's exactly what we're seeing in areas where experimentation and direct observation is hard, infeasible, or impossible.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#157
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our field is vastly simpler than medicine. We're working on the edge of theory and practice is much, much, much messier. Cut it out with the arrogance. http://johnsalvatier.org/blog/2017/reality-has-a-surprising-...

Frankly speaking, how could you judge? I am coming from a biomedical engineering advanced education from a top 10 institution, mind you. And I can tell you the lack of mathematical completeness in medicine is very alarming. It is too pharmacologically driven without a fundamental appreciation of the electrical sciences being applied, well, anywhere in their disciplines.

Well, almost every field that's "lacking mathematical completeness" is generally more complex than those that are not lacking it.

Real life is extremely fuzzy and ill-defined. Almost everything mathematical is a model and models are almost by definition, simpler than the thing they model.

I'd be glad to be proven wrong within my lifetime and have someone come up with the Fundamental Laws of History, for example, fully defined from a mathematical point of view.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#158
post #68

I find this weirdly amazing, as to this day I was reading some medical news and documentaries where it was said that entire human bodies were sliced by millimetre slices. So, somehow I always imagined that each part of body and tissue is 100% known and that only left is to find out what are inner workings on the nano-meter scale, deep molecular levels or genetic level. But in 2018 there was a similar news about Inter…

That we still find new structures within our own bodies should be deeply troubling to anyone in the medical sciences. I for one would be deeply ashamed if I suddenly found that bytes had a ninth bit we never suspected was there in the first place.

There's something to the parent comment, even though it's getting downvoted to oblivion. I'm a computer engineer turned biophysicist, so I've hit up against the "holy shit biology is so much more complicated than I could have imagined" realization. That said, should medical researchers be looking at their processes, incentives, etc. to figure out why such things have been missed, and how to find more "low-hanging fruit"

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#159

I find this weirdly amazing, as to this day I was reading some medical news and documentaries where it was said that entire human bodies were sliced by millimetre slices. So, somehow I always imagined that each part of body and tissue is 100% known and that only left is to find out what are inner workings on the nano-meter scale, deep molecular levels or genetic level. But in 2018 there was a similar news about Inter…

https://www.livescience.com/37348-new-layer-discovered-in-hu...

new eye layer

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Galen was a pretty accomplished medical researcher, and Roman-era medical implements were quite sophisticated, and were well-established by the time of the dark ages. Were those implements actually practiced throughout the dark ages or did they go the way of the Roman road networks? When people talk of the dark ages they're usually talking of post-Roman Western Europe rather than Asia or the Middle East. I'm not su…

Wikipedia defines the Dark Ages as lasting through the 15th century, by which point, Islamic medical advancements would have made it into Europe. Obviously, in 500AD, they didn't yet exist. One of the reason for the decline of the term "dark ages" is that there is increasing evidence that people in this period didn't actually crawl under a rock of ignorance. Large-scale armies and infrastructure projects were gone, b…

Right, I used it as an all-embracing term for 'very old', I'm surprised many have taken the term so literally. Perhaps it's characteristic of HN's audience.

"One of the reason for the decline of the term "dark ages" is that there is increasing evidence that people in this period didn't actually crawl under a rock of ignorance."

Despite my use of 'Dark Ages', I cannot agree with you more. Perhaps you might like to look at this image of a shoulder-clasp from Britain's Sutton Hoo Hoard (it's one of many). Considering both its age and the time in which it was created (and the limited tool available then), to me, this is one of the most remarkable and beautiful objects I've ever seen. It sends shivers down my back when I think of the sheer talent that created it. We are so lucky it's survived essentially intact across the last one and half millennia:

https://www.ancient.eu/image/5107/the-sutton-hoo-shoulder-cl...

(Make sure you click on the image to get the largest view.)

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