United States vs. Google • Hacker News Board

Re: United States vs. Google

#131

Post by VikingCoder » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

dsabanin wrote: post #120

VikingCoder wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, they said, "I do have a problem with them being the best [six things], at the SAME time." It's reasonable to read that as the OP thinks the number should be less then 6. Yes, they also said other things, but I think I'm giving them a fair read of that sentence.

It's not in the number of the products, it's in the scale of each of those products and the influence that they give them.

What should the law say is the new limit for the scale and influence they should be able to have?

Re: United States vs. Google

#132

Post by Jgrubb » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:30 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #126

thayne wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most Americans are unhappy with this situation. But we feel powerless to change it. We may have the right to vote, but we don't have options to vote for anyone that is incentivized to change the status quo.

I'm just grappling with the question. How can we call this democracy if most Americans want many extremely important things for decades and they don't happen? Isn't the point of democracy that the people have power?

I just really want to be the first to say "it's a republic, not a democracy!" because nobody can punch me while I'm quarantined.

Re: United States vs. Google

#133

Post by SkyPuncher » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

rland wrote: post #109

> there is a strain of political thought in America, independent of political party (although traditionally associated with Democrats), that is inherently allergic to concentrated power — monopoly in the populist sense, if not the legal one. > Hatred of monopoly is one of the oldest American political habits and like most profound traditions In what country does the author live? Americans are so used to concentrated…

Perhaps me and you interact with non-overlapping communities, but I've seen many of those things discussed as concerns.

Re: United States vs. Google

#134

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #126

thayne wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most Americans are unhappy with this situation. But we feel powerless to change it. We may have the right to vote, but we don't have options to vote for anyone that is incentivized to change the status quo.

I'm just grappling with the question. How can we call this democracy if most Americans want many extremely important things for decades and they don't happen? Isn't the point of democracy that the people have power?

Democracy only works well with an informed and educated populace and we have been defunding education for a decade. Add in the power of lobbyists and the newfound power of tech giants to inflict misery on humanity and you get the current “corporate rule” we are experiencing.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/a-punishi...

Re: United States vs. Google

#135

Post by sudosysgen » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:35 PM UTC

ankit219 wrote: post #25

One key insight I found from the article is the distinction between European Commission and US approach when it comes to innovation and investment in tech. > Third, Google will argue that its deals for Android distribution and the tying of search defaults to Google Play Services (including the Play Store) (...) but is also Google’s just reward for having invested in the creation of Android. This last argument didn’t…

They would only be able to do it if they get rid of any code at all that they didn't develop themselves, and then accordingly followed the rest of the licenses.

I'd imagine this would be a huge clusterfuck.

Re: United States vs. Google

#136

Post by jonas21 » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #72

scarmig wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Google give a boost to its own products in the search rankings?

Yes, a particularly annoying case for example is the "Coronavirus Map". Everyone I know that typed that on google, wanted to visit the John Hopkins map: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html But to me, and to many other people I know, it starts with Google own map and statistics, then some ads, then some random crap, and finally near the end of the page John Hopkins map. EDIT: just a note, I am not living in US, so th…

When I search for "coronavirus map", this is what I get:

https://i.imgur.com/XJ8zL7x.png

I see a link to the Johns Hopkins map at the very top, along with the New York Times map. And below that a bunch of statistics broken down by geography -- which is usually what I'm after, I don't care so much about the map itself.

What I don't see are any ads (and I'm not using an adblocker), or links to other Google properties except for their Coronavirus information site.

I realize you may get different results depending on where you are, but in particular, I'd be surprised if you saw ads or "random crap" for this search.

Re: United States vs. Google

#137

Post by kelnos » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

> At the same time, whatever an Aggregator chooses to do on its own site or app is less important, because users and third parties can always go elsewhere, and if they don’t, that is because they are satisfied.

This always strikes me as a weak argument. Facebook users can't go elsewhere because their friends aren't on other platforms. It doesn't matter if there's a more privacy-focused social network out there that people want to switch to. Network effects generally trump consumer choice.

Re: United States vs. Google

#138

Post by galimaufry » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

rland wrote: post #109

> there is a strain of political thought in America, independent of political party (although traditionally associated with Democrats), that is inherently allergic to concentrated power — monopoly in the populist sense, if not the legal one. > Hatred of monopoly is one of the oldest American political habits and like most profound traditions In what country does the author live? Americans are so used to concentrated…

> In what country does the author live?

Singapore, for what it's worth.

Re: United States vs. Google

#139

Post by MangoCoffee » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

VikingCoder wrote: post #51

dsabanin wrote: post #47

I think Google is the best search engine. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with them being the best search engine, top online ad platform and a developer of the top mobile OS, top video streaming service, top internet browser, top mapping/navigation service, among other things, at the SAME time. Their assets give them undue and unsupervised influence over a very big chunk of what's happening onli…

1) best search engine 2) top online ad platform 3) top mobile OS 4) top video streaming service 5) top internet browser 6) top mapping/navigation service Okay, you listed 6. What should the law say is the new limit for how many they should be able to have?

isn't all six combined into one giant Monster? each one of these six also feed off each other. that's scary. isn't it?

Re: United States vs. Google

#140

Post by Judgmentality » Wed, Oct 21, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

wonder_er wrote: post #124

Judgmentality wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a red herring fallacy. The government can be more evil than Google and Google can still be evil. Does that mean we should not care that Google is evil? The government is the only tool we have to fight Google. And while there are lots of problems with our government, we still have the ability to enact change by voting. You can't really do that with Google, even as a shareholder. The founders have supervoting r…

> The government can be more evil than Google and Google can still be evil. Does that mean we should not care that Google is evil? You're conflating two things. 1. The government is more evil than Google. 2. Google may still be evil. therefore... use the more evil thing to fight the less evil thing? I disagree with this assessment. I'd say we should focus on mitigating the _most_ evil thing, using _less evil_ tools.…

The entire premise of your argument is that there is a free market, but the entire premise of this lawsuit is that Google has a monopoly.

Sure, in a perfect world (or really, your idea of a perfect world) that might work. But I'm much more interested in practical solutions than idealistic truisms.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good enough.

Also by your own logic, unless you believe the US government is the most evil thing in existence, we shouldn't even be focusing on that. So you should go fight whatever you consider to be the greatest evil and keep knocking the top off the totem pole.