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Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

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Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#71

Post by iguy »

majewsky wrote: post #49
dynamite-ready wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, though it also makes me think of the numerous cases of drugs developed with a specific purpose, but then afterwards found to have a completely different effect to what was originally intended. Medical science is an incredible thing, but science, by definition, does not have all the answers. A small part of me is actually somewhat surprised, that people (both lay, and professional) are surprised. Though I am n…

> drugs developed with a specific purpose, but then afterwards found to have a completely different effect to what was originally intended I don't find that surprising. You have to do the early phases of drug development in model systems like cell cultures for practical reasons: It makes evidence obtained more reproducible and has less ethical concerns than experimenting on humans immediately. It's like how software…

What seems weird about this is that the process for deciding that an approved drug is useful for a certain condition (not the one it was intended for) is really informal, it seems to rely on common knowledge circulating in the guild.

For the initial approval, we have this very formal process, the FDA wants this kind of data from trials of this size to show this statistical level, etc. All very scientific-looking.

But once it's on the market, random doctors try it out for other conditions. If it seems to work they tell their buddies, tweak the mixtures, share anecdotes. If it becomes widespread, some industry club records this for the purpose of arguing with insurance companies. I am told this off-label use now constitutes the majority of drug prescriptions. All based on (as far as I can tell) no statistically driven testing at all, just stories.

(To be clear, I'm not at all surprised that drugs have "off-target" effects, and may be very useful for things their inventor never imagines. I'm just a bit shocked how pre-modern our system for collecting this knowledge appears to be. But not an expert, and would love to know more.)

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#73

Post by sneak »

rbanffy wrote: post #68
NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #45

I find this weirdly amazing, as to this day I was reading some medical news and documentaries where it was said that entire human bodies were sliced by millimetre slices. So, somehow I always imagined that each part of body and tissue is 100% known and that only left is to find out what are inner workings on the nano-meter scale, deep molecular levels or genetic level. But in 2018 there was a similar news about Inter…

That we still find new structures within our own bodies should be deeply troubling to anyone in the medical sciences. I for one would be deeply ashamed if I suddenly found that bytes had a ninth bit we never suspected was there in the first place.

It’s deeply troubling to me not in the medical sciences.

We know so startlingly little about how our own machines work in many ways.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#74

Post by Joker_vD »

rbanffy wrote: post #68
NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #45

I find this weirdly amazing, as to this day I was reading some medical news and documentaries where it was said that entire human bodies were sliced by millimetre slices. So, somehow I always imagined that each part of body and tissue is 100% known and that only left is to find out what are inner workings on the nano-meter scale, deep molecular levels or genetic level. But in 2018 there was a similar news about Inter…

That we still find new structures within our own bodies should be deeply troubling to anyone in the medical sciences. I for one would be deeply ashamed if I suddenly found that bytes had a ninth bit we never suspected was there in the first place.

Have you heard of ECC memory?

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#75

Post by iguy »

NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #53

Question for those medical HN ppl: What is definition of organ? I mean before when people were doing surgeries and slicing through interstitium, mesentery or different glands, were surgeon thinking "i will just slice through this slimy thing that does not do anything" or there was more thought about it? Before people were removing on regular bases appendix or tonsil, now understanding about the role has changed... so…

Not a medical person, but I think this is much like asking "what's a species?". Nature is clearly clumpy, your body has one heart & two lungs & they have obviously different tissues & purposes. But precisely how many organs, and precisely where you draw the divides, is something we don't have sharp answers to. We adjust as we go along.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#76

Post by murgindrag »

wrinkl3 wrote: post #12
hilbert42 wrote: post #5

It seems almost unbelievable that in this day and age we could have missed something like this. In my opinion, it put modern medicine into perspective. I've suspected for some time that medicine is actually closer to the dark ages than we like to think it is, and this report seems like a good validation of that notion.

> I've suspected for some time that medicine is actually closer to the dark ages than we like to think it is What does that even mean? Nobody's claiming that modern medicine is anywhere close to perfect but the "dark ages" medicine was Humorism, blood letting and faith healing. Surgeons didn't start washing their hands before childbirth until the 19th century. It's really weird to look back at the mind-boggling progr…

I think you're being a little mean to the dark ages.

Galen was a pretty accomplished medical researcher, and Roman-era medical implements were quite sophisticated, and were well-established by the time of the dark ages. By the late dark ages, we also saw a lot of modern medical techniques coming in from the Middle East.

There's this stereotype of people being filthy, ignorant, and dumb, but it's not really true. And for many of the bad practices from then do persist in poorer parts of the world today affecting likely around a billion people (and some, like homeopathy, even in wealthy parts).

Note that I'm not weighing in on the overall debate about where modern medicine is relative to the dark ages. We've made a lot of progress. I'm just refuting the stereotype of the dark ages.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#77

Post by 52-6F-62 »

rbanffy wrote: post #68
NiceWayToDoIT wrote: post #45

I find this weirdly amazing, as to this day I was reading some medical news and documentaries where it was said that entire human bodies were sliced by millimetre slices. So, somehow I always imagined that each part of body and tissue is 100% known and that only left is to find out what are inner workings on the nano-meter scale, deep molecular levels or genetic level. But in 2018 there was a similar news about Inter…

That we still find new structures within our own bodies should be deeply troubling to anyone in the medical sciences. I for one would be deeply ashamed if I suddenly found that bytes had a ninth bit we never suspected was there in the first place.

Yeah... and hearing some of those being related to the gut. I’ve been diagnosed with a condition this year without real, solid evidence for cause. Seeing some of the brightest doctors try and write off health matters to alcoholism in non-alcoholics was concerning. After even cursory, high-level reading of what those terms mean elf me to believe it’s the favoured diagnosis when they’re unsure of the diagnosis and hesitate at all costs to give the label “idiopathic” if possible because then it really means “we don’t know”.

It’s not reassuring.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#78

Post by throwaway0a5e »

hilbert42 wrote: post #5

It seems almost unbelievable that in this day and age we could have missed something like this. In my opinion, it put modern medicine into perspective. I've suspected for some time that medicine is actually closer to the dark ages than we like to think it is, and this report seems like a good validation of that notion.

"Centuries of scientitic progress being held back by centuries of tradition" seems like an apt cliche to invoke.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#79

Post by DonHopkins »

hamilyon2 wrote: post #59
adriand wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then we’re in the dark ages for everything, except maybe siege warfare. So it becomes a meaningless comment.

I could think of other examples. I mean, we know for sure that electrical motors are not going to be hugely more efficient, because then they will break conservation of energy and bunch of other laws of physics. So, by that measure we are not in dark ages

Yet we power them by burning coal.

Re: Researchers discover new salivary glands in the human head

#80

Post by roywiggins »

projektfu wrote: post #60

I’m a little surprised they went to a press release but didn’t say they identified a structure in a cadaver. So, at the moment, this is sort of like a geological feature that’s only ever been seen using a satellite.

They did find it in two cadavers:

"These tubarial glands were seen to exist in the PSMA PET/CT scans of all the 100 patients examined in the study, and physical investigations of two cadavers – one male and one female – also showed the mysterious bilateral structure, revealing macroscopically visible draining duct openings towards the nasopharyngeal wall."

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